erexere wrote:: Okay shecrab...telling folks to expect me to go away is just a neutral statement then? It just seems odd and shows a lack pf human compassion that you think its okay to go around telling people that someone has been around long enough...im not saying that about you am I? In the interests of trying to keep the verse and image threads less cluttered with overall questions of methodology, I'd like to move at least this branch of the discussion here to this thread.  Let's keep the verse stuff in the verse threads and the image stuff in the image threads, and everything else, elsewhere. She isn't telling you to go away.  Rather, like me (and others), she keeps trying to find new ways of trying to communicate with you. It's frustrating, Eric.  Because, you do seem to enjoy a sort of reverse logic at times, where you will take a multi-layered free association and think that it's simple, but you completely ignore the concrete clues that are directly tied into most of these proposed casque sites.  If you were building a persuasive case, you'd be saying things like, "Yes, I understand that there are these concrete clues at, say, the FOY park, but here's even *more* concrete evidence for why I think it's in Oregon."  And you stitch together photographs at the angle you want, and you rotate the images to whatever angle you need, draw little yellow lines on them, and you try to make the case that, say, the "blob" looks like Pac-man, or the boy in the clock looks like a steeple.  None of the other solutions have required anywhere near this level of convolution to make the clues fit.  What we're saying -- with varying levels of directness -- is that your methodology is not appropriate for this puzzle.  There's two casques' worth of solid evidence that the more indirect your interpretations get, the far less likely you will be to find a casque. The problem now has nothing to do with who's right and wrong.  If you'll go back through the history of this board and look at how disagreements and ideas have been dealt with in the past, you'll see that most of these discussions have been productive and respectful.  Evidence is presented; criticism is presented; the cycle repeats.  I like your enthusiasm, and (sometimes) your creativity.  It's good to have someone to go against the grain and bring a fresh perspective.  Thing is, though, you don't absorb this criticism productively.  There's very little, "I see what you're saying... let me think about that."  You just keep the firehose of images and interpretations coming.  The resistance you're getting lately has a lot more to do with how little you seem to be interested in actually engaging in a real conversation.  There are only so many times we can say the same thing before we get tired of trying to get through to you.  I'm afraid that here, even spelling it out, that you'll make some crack about me not understanding analogies on the SAT or something.  (And since you were wondering, I made a good living teaching the SAT for a while, so, yes: I understand them.) This isn't about "resentment" or a "lack of human compassion."  No one is "berating" you.  It'd be great for you to just slow the heck down and start thinking through some of these things that people raise with you.  For as much time as you've put into this hunt, they've put in more.  And I am certain that they're every bit as smart as you -- so, really, they might actually have something valid to say on the subject.  The reason they haven't dug a casque up yet has much less to do with their methodology being wrong, than the fact that many of the literal signposts and confirmers just aren't there anymore.  Heck, even the world had changed before very first casque was dug up -- BP had to clarify a clue to the finders, because some of the trees were no longer there -- and this was less than a year after he buried it!  You have got to keep that context in mind, always, because there is always the possibility that you're basing hours of your life (and potentially hundreds of your dollars on archaeologists, etc.) on a theory that has a flawed premise at its foundation. I like this hunt, and I like the idea of maybe one day seeing another casque get unearthed.  But this isn't the way to go.

Bigmatty, I've seen you swoop down with some excellent criticism, but you've also brushed aside coherent ideas like they are pointless drivel.  You seem confused about what drives my points.  It's not easy to come up with a consistent theme, check facts, and suffer a begging style.  You sound equally dismayed about the way I convey my ideas as you are about their substance. I try to be conscientious about when I offer a rotated image.  I can think of at least three cases where I said "this is a rotated image..." or a split image or a negative and cite the example in Image 4 where the Terminal Tower is negative and upside down. I did not say with any guarantee that clockboy was the steeple.  I offered it as a comparison only for the reason that it was an option that I considered since the steeple was theoretically visible from a spot on Basin St.  Maltedfalcon quickly obliged by shooting it down, thank you btw, and I backed off of any insistence to the effect and moved on to a new perspective on a different part of the church that actually looked like a better fit.  It remains a consideration.  There is an example of having a constructive engaging interaction. I'm not interested in persuading my Oregon case as a point in opposition to FOY.  I think FOY is a great theory and I've said so more than once.  I brought forth my Oregon theory independently and without regard to FOY.  I'm sorry if it doesn't meet your standard or taste for a concrete argument.  If it has to be that is the lynchpin in my not being well received then so be it.  I've tried to be open and forthcoming about my approach and why I think one thing leads to another.  My essential approach to this puzzle is strictly about looking for a theme, finding a correlation that fits a person, place, or thing and looking for the key factors that inform a method of finding a dig spot. My premise is only that some puzzles are different than others.  They are all presented with seemingly different variables at work.  Look at the variation in the imagery.  Look at the variation in verse.  Chicago wasn't exactly like Cleveland.  Taking a fresh perspective without forcing a Chicago/Cleveland method isn't necessarily wrong.  It's only an interesting and different approach until we learn a result. It's no big deal to me if I have wasted my time or my dollar to find or not find a casque.  What's more important is sharing the experience of participating in an amazing hunt.  I agree that my theories are way way out of the ordinary, and many of your points are valuable criticism for my consideration, but you have it wrong if you think I haven't been berated, given guff, or called a troll. Compassion is about understanding others.  I maintain the view that maltedfalcon is making a choice to use a rigid method and it's potentially wrong. I give it a 51% chance of being exactly right.  I respect and admire his recent work towards the SF casque.  I didn't chide him in the least for not finding it.  Of course he's been around and active much longer than I and he's generally better received...and also he's an expert in most fact checking much like shecrab.  As I've been evolving my ideas and offering tid bits to evaluate at a fast pace (not saying anyone is slow here...It's obvious that i've been busy), I think it's become clear to everyone that I've fixed my position around here as an outsider and an annoyance.  I spend a good amount of time investigating other folks ideas and I wanted to weigh in on something forest blight said about North Brother Island but I realized it was too difficult to share my view and not seem like I'm touting my entire shelf of misfit theories.  I need to work on that.  He resurfaced a good point of evidence, but it conflicted with two of my theories so much that I simply couldn't see myself sounding very genuine in my criticism.  It's a healthy idea, I'll give it that. Let's be clear about methodology but also access that informal quality of having fun and being surprised with wonder and discovery.  Were Chicago and Cleveland so interesting that you would love to see the rest of the casques follow rote application of reverse engineered ideas?  It's been how long since the last find?  How long since the first?  How much time and dithering does it take to turn up the rest of these casques if they haven't yet been lost to oblivion?  I can't say much of a theme presents itself in Image4, which looks like a centaur standing on a wall...pretty darn simplistic.  The only twist there was that there wasn't an actual centaur statue at the site!  But look at image 8 and tell me you don't see something deeper.  Image 7 has something really interesting going on.  Image 10 looks every so simple but it has lots of possibility.  Each different image just puzzles so differently that I'm in absolute awe of both JJP and Preiss.  Yet you seem to be saying they are all simple and met with a uniform approach.  As I said before, I can understand and respect that approach.  Please don't judge me so harshly that I work the 49% option.  I know you're all paying attention, but are you all understanding?  If each layer beyond you're standard assessment for what is needed means I'm that much less likely to be right, then that just means my option has shrank, but it is still there as a possibility, so don't confuse least likely with 'wrong' or 'not possible'.

Unknown: eric said hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 27#p119827 I try to be conscientious about when I offer a rotated image.  I can think of at least three cases where I said "this is a rotated image..." or a split image or a negative and cite the example in Image 4 where the Terminal Tower is negative and upside down . not sure if this was ever mentioned,if you turn the img 180,that would put the park and garden in the right perspective from the T tower, where the garden is if you were standing here i hope i said that right hxxp://g.co/maps/r3jg8

cw, that's really interesting.  Doesn't it seem like turning around with your back to the Terminal Tower you would be standing at the intersection of W. Superior and Ontario and turned to the Northeast to have the TT just behind your right shoulder as the page shows flipped 180 with TT on the lower right side?  I thought Euclid was the way to go, now it seems taking Superior Ave all the way to the park is almost a straight shot to the Gardens.

I considered that possibility, however superior passes the park, it goes over it, no place to turn, no clue to turn. With Euclid we are given the turn point at the Triangle. Also with superior there is no indication which way to go. however the actual street you are standing on in that image is a one way street which merges onto euclid going toward the park.

cw0909 wrote:: not sure if this was ever mentioned,if you turn the img 180,that would put the park and garden in the right perspective from the T tower, where the garden is if you were standing here i hope i said that right hxxp://g.co/maps/r3jg8 Thats very cool and consistent with Chicago and  SF(assuming I am right, if you flip the image so the map lines up - Lincolns head - representing lincoln park is now on the correct side of the map. and approximately the correct location.

malt what would be really cool,is if the other 9img followed the same 180 alignment it would be much easier,if you had a start dir from the start,i may be wrong,i think wilhouse refered to the img,as needing turned to see the alignment, of X landmark way back when,and if thats so,thats 4 out of 12,well another casque may get dug this yr after all,if the 180 alignment idea holds up

Parks have been seen as the likeliest place to find a casque now since the two found were in parks.  It's a good bet that others might be in parks as well.  Reference to at least one point followed by an general area and a strict angle seemed to be used; we can see the method applied to Chicago's fence fixture and then picking a line directly to it, and perpendicular to the wall perimeter and in the middle of 10 by 13 trees.  Cleveland had some very specific instructions, but Egbert dug extensively before finding the shattered box. I believe Preiss worked to use the most stable environments for his hunt.  Historic sites, monuments, memorials, things of rock, engravings, facades, and street names.  Time affects these items in the least way.  Some historic sites get bulldozed, some streets get renamed like MLK.  Most parks stay well maintained once established.  I doubt he'd pick a park that was on the outs. Image 5 had a bunch of visual elements to satisfy an erratic trek through around and through the general area of Grant Park.  Image 4 had just a few: terminal tower, twin columns, and a wall.  What wasn't utilized in either was the main personality in each image.  There wasn't a giant with a hat unless it was a metaphor for Abe Lincoln, and there wasn't a centaur.  Use of an iconic starting point and a combination of picture and word clues helps navigate by street names.  When you think about, there's a number of basic ways to communicate a set of directions or path instructions.  Whether an image uses one approach or two, we'll have to be attentive to all conceivable navigational methods. The FOY theory lands you at the park directly. I didn't catch any mention of street name methods or Iconic structures in the area.  Image 6 doesn't offer a whole lot of elements beyond the one personality of Ponce de Leon and so it becomes a more abstract word search and descriptive approach.  The non-linear aspect of that approach defies anything simple as lining up a visual confirmer with a description.  A palm tree in the background doesn't seem unique enough.  The white rock in the water looks like the thing to be found...but nobody has found that exact rock in FOY...what happened to it?  Is the iceberg next to tree a visual metaphor or complex rebus like eyes-berg[amot] + tree, as in "see a citrus tree"?  The horse and rider are both upon a higher peak, looking down and away from the white rock.  How does this image play out according to the methods used in Image 4 or 5?  So far, from what I've read and seen in the highlighted and circled images, I see a major departure from the empirical view.  There are excellent descriptions and word matches to places and fixtures like the observatory and salt cellar but they don't connect as simply as the columns did to the rectangle and wall of image 4.  FOY is a mess despite all the love and attention it's been given. My personal theory on Image 6 applies to Verse 5 and uses the "222" as a highway and exit number.  The road climbs and curves to a vista where the first historic site has a plaque that advertises the heaviness of the monument: "here sits a 50-ton boulder in honor of Sam Hill...".  The line "Weight on roots extended"  The boulder sits on three square stone platforms, each extending out farther than the one above it.  There's little embellishment needed to see the simplicity in that descriptive to visual confirmer.  The rest of the verse flows smoothly as butter and all elements fit snugly.  The one thing that gave me the most trouble was "wingless bird ascending" since it seems to apply in more ways than one, but only one way supports a method consistent with finding a white stone and taking 12 paces.  It was the folklore of the local region that tied the three nearest mountains together into a legendary Indian love triangle.  My methodology was simple, I recognized some options with the first line of the verse: Lane, could be a person, place, or thing...Joseph Lane, or a roadway, a county, or a bowling alley.  Since I live in Lane County I had to satisfy my curiosity and so I proceeded to investigate the meaning of "222".  Step by step each thing discovered confirmed without need for any loose imaginings.  Now that I've been to the site and researched many options, I can't find any room at all for being fooled into thinking this is the right way to go with this image. Wilhouses (and other contributors) theory on Hermann Park was treated much like the FOY theory.  Start with being dumped at the park entrance.  Lots of good descriptions and a loosely connected path to the Children's Zoo.  Where as much visual and verse information was reserved for describing the treasure ground.  Sometimes the desire for economy can be misleading.  I tried a number of different approaches and admit I got very fooled at times by things which have changed a great deal over time, like the Hospital lot or the miniature train track additions.  My latest strategy approaches the verse as a collection of three line breaks and the last line alone looking very dodgy, "A whistle sounds."  It fits snugly to see the Cathedral and the Glassel school as confirmers.  I believe if you are set in their proximity, the next line Friendship South seems to apply to Hermann Park.  Friendship..."her man"...a girlfriend and her boyfriend...seems like a snug fit.  When we pursue the Take your task to the 982 line we are now making a path towards the center of the park and beyond.  I think it's a honeypot setup to stick us in the CZ.  The visual confirmer of the Elf says it all...trickster.  If it's not there then where is it?  It is at this point you have to have fun, climb high (a tower if you will), take flight and fall gently somewhere within these descriptive confirmers that fits the image of sand, columns, and something charging like a rhino...like Samel Houston signaling a charge from his steed.  I'm unclear where the park boundaries are, but the tree covered areas near the Mecom fountain and Sam Houston statue seems like the way to go.  Is that inside the park boundary? Redundancies have been discussed some but I think they need much more attention.  Why would Preiss write a single word if it didn't have enough meaning to go with it?  Isn't one well selected word enough to make a point or does he really want to put redundancies in his work?  Hey, this is Hermann park....oh btw, Hermann park here...did you know this is Hermann park?  Blah.  I think the Melville quote had a sly purpose.  Hermann Park is a big happy place that gets lots of visitors...shouldn't it be expected that we'd figure out the 982 or land on a Zoo context given the rhino/camel?  I don't think concluding Melville's first name is the only use of that line.  A tower then?  A high standing structure...or something which tows, like a train engine...its strong and especially a delight to ride in miniature scale (until you find out how not cushy is the ride).  Hermann Park is full of attractions.  It seems right that we would be invited to visit every literal connection: the trains, the lions, the rhino's, snowflake, etc., but then you're stuck turning over every rock, looking for every discrete dig possible spot...and with what methodology?  Overlay?  The gem located next to the ball-topped column (globe lamp)?  In the center of three statues...?  (Sorry, Wilhouse, I know you tried everything you could).  Going beyond the literal is all that's left to do if a bulldozer and a highly motivated hunter didn't find it.  The likeness in shape to the Houston roundabout and large rectangle pool is clearly meant to be seen as the column, but how is that like our towering long range icons in Image 4 and 5?  It's not, but what else is there in this desert image?  Nothing.  This is a departure where the verse does the work of describing the city of Houston's iconic tower.  I really think it's going to be the First City Tower.  In 1981, it was high on the iconic list.  It has four alike in it's design.  What's in the middle of it?  From a distance, Fannin street points to it's middle.  I think this sounds unlikely to most, but it just utilizes a shift in perspective from visual to written.  Both are used to convey information.  We only prefer the visual method because of the discovered casques.  There is no basis beyond that to exclude written descriptive information from being as applicable as visual information. I don't know if I've opened up any worthy ideas to discuss, but please give it consideration.  I promise I'll hold off on the more divergent ideas for a day or two.

erexere wrote:: I believe Preiss worked to use the most stable environments for his hunt. this is an erroneous assumption, as we know BP believed they would all be found quickly, you cant assume much in the way of permanent markers which is why a llama named snowflake is actually an acceptable clue

Also, dont forget that the Cleveland Image was connected, via the story and the I's jewel, to the Hellas.  Although the Greeks call the country Hellas or Ellada (Greek: Ελλάς, Ελλάδα) and its official name is Hellenic Republic, in English the country is called Greece.  This casque was found in the Greek Cultural Gardens.

erexere wrote:: I believe if you are set in their proximity, the next line Friendship South seems to apply to Hermann Park.  Friendship..."her man"...a girlfriend and her boyfriend...seems like a snug fit. Unknown: I think it's a honeypot setup to stick us in the CZ. Unknown: Redundancies have been discussed some but I think they need much more attention.  Why would Preiss write a single word if it didn't have enough meaning to go with it?  Isn't one well selected word enough to make a point or does he really want to put redundancies in his work?  Hey, this is Hermann park....oh btw, Hermann park here...did you know this is Hermann park? Unknown: I don't think concluding Melville's first name is the only use of that line. Unknown: The gem located next to the ball-topped column (globe lamp)?  In the center of three statues...? Unknown: The likeness in shape to the Houston roundabout and large rectangle pool is clearly meant to be seen as the column but how is that like our towering long range icons in Image 4 and 5?  It's not, but what else is there in this desert image?  Nothing. Unknown: This is a departure where the verse does the work of describing the city of Houston's iconic tower.  I really think it's going to be the First City Tower.  In 1981, it was high on the iconic list.  It has four alike in it's design. A few responses about your Houston thoughts: As maltedfalcon said, BP expected these to be solved within a year or two.  He didn't have longevity in mind.  Think of this: even the 982 train -- which everyone almost unanimously agrees is, in fact, the train -- isn't there anymore.  They moved a giant multi-ton fixture that looked as permanent as anything. Not every clue still exists anymore.  Things Change. Another more literal possibility: An out-of-order confirmer for "Texas".  We're taught in Texas schools from an early age that the name Texas is derived from the local Native Americans' word for "Friendship."  Friendship South = Texas, a state in the South.  (This is, actually, common knowledge around here. hxxp://bit.ly/xy9NfO ) I think you're overthinking things.  BP expected these to be solved within a year or two. I think you're overstating these "redundancies".  I see one clue that signifies a nearby art school ("Fortress north, cold as glass") -- much like "M and B set in stone".  And I see one clue that's a confirmer for Hermann Park (the Melville quote).  The 982 train is another thing inside Hermann Park, as is the aqua tunnel, etc., but at this point, the purpose of the clues is to get you to the specific casque site within the park.  They're not just redundant confirmers. I think it stands just fine on its own as a sort of a semi-obscure signifier for Hermann Park.  He did, clearly, put in quotes from not-so-well-known sources.  "Here is a sovereign people...", for example.  I think of these as bonuses for the well-read.  If you get them, it was like a little wink from BP.  I do think that this was as obscure as he got. It seems like a good idea, but there isn't any evidence that the location of the gem in the images has anything to do with the burial sites. As for "In the center of four alike", well, not every clue still exists anymore.  Wilhouse's best guess was that the casque was buried somewhere in the center of four of those cinderblock statues, and I think that's as good a guess as any.  BP didn't know they'd be moved.  He expected these to be solved in a year or two. There are actually a few markers in the zoo.  The lampposts are an unusual design -- large spheres on top of posts.  I still remember these from when I was a kid; they're fairly unique.  Someone recently posted a good match for the rhino on top of a pole, as a sign for the Houston Zoo.  Wilhouse has pointed out, many times, that the hat on the djinn is the same as the hat on the gnome in the CZ.  The Chicago/Cleveland solves had about 3-4 literal confirmers.  This tracks pretty well with what we know to be true in the other confirmed solutions. Okay. Chicago had the Water Tower; Cleveland has Terminal Tower; and Milwaukee has City Hall.  You definitely have my attention here.  But I do have to tell you the First City Tower has never been considered an "iconic" tower in Houston, at least not to my knowledge.  It's a rather bland, boring office building.  If BP wanted to use a building to signify Houston, its best-known one at the time was the Astrodome. Anyway.  I know you don't want to leave any word un-meaning-ified, but I think with Houston especially, it's important to remember: not every clue still exists anymore.  Things Change.  If any other casques are dug up, it'll be where things change less, and the clues have a higher likelihood of still existing.  Maybe like the Roanoke one.

Malt, I wasnt assuming he was trying to design it to last more than a year or two, but I can see how my stance might be seen that way.  I am trying to say it seems that BP made a conscious effort to avoid the less stable environments whether it was a stylistic choice or just good commn sense.  Early on I recall wondering if he used an art exibit in Milwaukee as a reference point (this was a current art show that wouldnt be expected to change in a year or two).  I was 100% wrong on that btw, since I was trying to pair Image 2 with Milwaukee at the time.  Im just saying given each general location there are more established and stable places than others.  I would focus on those oldest and historically important or recognized sites first.  Anything with a plaque is a good start, even places that were only recently put on the historic register. As a point of style, I thought he was going for anything that fit an old and established context to preserve a fair folk theme.  Associating each in a culturally distinct, older, natural setting. Big, I didnt know that about Texas, what a great piece of information, attaching meaning of a Native American reference to signify the state sounds solid. I might be overthinking many things as usual, but it sure seems like BP selected the ambiguous items to play with our focus, not to confuse those items with redundancies.  His efforts might have been as simple as recognize the big clues that home in on the general area and then quickly find the confirmers after getting a good feel for the area, its statues, and architectural standouts.  It couldve been that he made the trail as clear as day at the time and done nothing to be elusive, but I find his work more compelling as a reward system to those who solved some of the fairy contorted challenges. The working definition of iconic isnt in my mind something that has to be universally recognized as it a city identified component.  I see it as a matter of perspective.  The Terminal Tower was very distinctive and fits that purpose, but I feel the more important use is to see something from a perspective or good distance that does have a distinctive character.  First Tower isnt the Astrodome in comparison, I agree, but it does remain distinct from a long distant view on Fannin street.  It just sits in the middle of the perspective and has those four column like shadowy features in its face.  In Boston, I like the Citgo sign as a long range clue.  In Rodanthe, I like the Chicomacomico water tower.  In Corbett, I like Sentinel (Phoca) Rock which stands out in the middle of the Columbia River.  In Montreal, I like the the lamp in front of the Railroad mogul's historic residence...which is a real departure from long range and probably a significant indicator in the difficulty level of that solution.  In Florida, I'd say its Ponce's statue.  SF is a tough one to decide on, it offers several choices, which adds a layer of difficulty rather than making things easy.  New Orleans uses the Superdome.  Sumter in Charleston.  The First Towers face where the column shapes are vertically stacked succesively and diminish in proportion based on a close up view could explain the horizontal spread of literal columns also similarly proportioned in the background of the image.  I said verse did the work to describe the iconic structure as an exception but now I realize it is more likely a Fannin street signifier. Big, i like your perspective on the obscure quotings as winks, but my suspicions remain that if he had the option to affix it to a specific challenge point, I think he knew what a thrill and sense of accomplishment it would bring.

fox wrote:: Also, dont forget that the Cleveland Image was connected, via the story and the I's jewel, to the Hellas.  Although the Greeks call the country Hellas or Ellada (Greek: Ελλάς, Ελλάδα) and its official name is Hellenic Republic, in English the country is called Greece.  This casque was found in the Greek Cultural Gardens. That LOJ connection really does a number on us doesnt it?  As long as BP maintained a cultural distinction between jewels then it remains likely the LOJ will identify with things to some extent, but to say Clevelands connection follows the association isnt sound. May i suggest Milwaukee is the Polish connection?  I might also suggest Montreal is the French connection, where a puck is smuggled to Vancouver, B.C...

erexere wrote:: May i suggest Milwaukee is the Polish connection?  I might also suggest Montreal is the French connection, where a puck is smuggled to Vancouver, B.C... Hang on a minute...the connections are explicitly set out through the association of each image with a gem, and the litany which ties each gem to a nationality. France corresponds with New Orleans, and Poland doesn't come into it. 1 San Fransisco - China (Chinatown?) 2 Charleston - Africa 3 Roanoke - England (Elizabethan Gardens / Lost Colony) 4 Cleveland - Greece (Greek garden) 5 Chicago - Ireland 6 Florida - Spain (Ponce de Leon) 7 New Orleans - France 8 Houston - Arabia 9 Montreal - Dutch (Fur trade? See P27 footnotes) 10 Milwaukee - Germany 11 Boston - Italy 12 New York - Russia (Gershwin?)

I get that, but isnt there some healthy skepticism that the actual jewel locations were not based on the Litany?  One person claiming to have had a conversation with Preiss recalls him saying that.  The writings other than the verse were essentially seperate from his secret casque site selections depending only on the verses, right?

erexere wrote:: I get that, but isnt there some healthy skepticism that the actual jewel locations were not based on the Litany?  One person claiming to have had a conversation with Preiss recalls him saying that.  The writings other than the verse were essentially seperate from his secret casque site selections depending only on the verses, right? Egbert wrote:: Preiss was a very good poker player, and was not giving out any hints about any of the other locations.  However, he did confirm my theory that the countries of origin of the faeries do connect with the sites. He also said that the pages following the verses (which make up the bulk of the book) have no connection with the puzzles, and contain no additional clues. Nope, quite the contrary... Note that Preiss discounted the pages following the verses. It's clear that the images connect with the litany, which falls in the middle of the introductory notes, despite people's reluctance to look at them. Also note that Preiss confirmed that the fairies' country of origin is connected with the sites. In other words, the book has additional clues besides the images and verses.

I see, this is hard for me to accept and is a big deal breaker towards how I've approached the problems.

erexere wrote:: The working definition of iconic isnt in my mind something that has to be universally recognized as it a city identified component.  ... I feel the more important use is to see something from a perspective or good distance that does have a distinctive character.  First Tower isnt the Astrodome in comparison, I agree, but it does remain distinct from a long distant view on Fannin street. At a distance, it's even more white and boring.  I actually don't think you can any of its facade from that distance anyway -- it's right in the middle of downtown, with many other buildings surrounding it.  If you want to find a building that goes with your idea, you'd probably be better off looking at the buildings in the Medical Center -- right adjacent to Hermann Park.  There have been tall buildings in that area since the 50s. I'm totally open to the idea of the litany being part of the puzzle.  But how does it contribute clues to the hunt, beyond the country-based "themes" for each casque?  At some point, if they're going to be useful, they have to provide something more specific to help us get to that tiny plot to dig up.

bigmattyh wrote:: At some point, if they're going to be useful, they have to provide something more specific to help us get to that tiny plot to dig up. (True - having now settled on the list of cities, and largely parks, we've probably gone beyond that point.)

Big, I researched the Houston tall buildings and a lot of new construction happened post 80.  Not seeinf First Tower from a Herman Park vantage isnt any diifferent than not seeing Chicago/Cleveland towers from their park areas.  I see it as a street signifier.

erexere wrote:: Big, I researched the Houston tall buildings and a lot of new construction happened post 80.  Not seeinf First Tower from a Herman Park vantage isnt any diifferent than not seeing Chicago/Cleveland towers from their park areas.  I see it as a street signifier. I don't think it's in the image, frankly.

erexere wrote:: I see, this is hard for me to accept and is a big deal breaker towards how I've approached the problems. In which way do you mean?

Mmmm...well, its the Spain/Florida thing that puts the biggest doubt in the Oregon theory.  From that theory, some of my other verse pairings differ from the mainsttream.  Bruno de Heceta is the only spanish explorer I would think significant to Oregon coastal history...I'd wager he could be cited for Face Rock and Haystack Rock that I strongly believe to be contained in image 6.  I never thought of the Spain connection before...got a lot of thinking and review ahead of me. Thanks.

bigmattyh wrote:: Another more literal possibility: An out-of-order confirmer for "Texas".  We're taught in Texas schools from an early age that the name Texas is derived from the local Native Americans' word for "Friendship."  Friendship South = Texas, a state in the South.  (This is, actually, common knowledge around here. The state motto of Texas is "friendship" -- probably what BP was referring to (more directly than the etymology of the word "Texas").

forest_blight wrote:: The state motto of Texas is "friendship" -- probably what BP was referring to (more directly than the etymology of the word "Texas"). Six of one, half dozen of the other...?  It all comes from the same place, and it still makes "Friendship" a clue for "Texas."

I'm curious about this similarity.  Was there a pupose to using a specific architecture? Sorry. I need to get a better resolution and resize...still not handling the switch to ipad too well.

what is that the pedestal for? which city is it in? Is it in cleveland? Ah thats the Sam Houston Monument?

You know the piece that is missing, is of course the methodology for pairing the Image to the verse, besides an arbitrary choice by the casque hunter.  I believe there is a method that clearly states, This image goes with this verse, It might have to do with the clocks or the flowers or even the birthstones, or it might be something entirely different. I am sure, that something in the image tells you what verse to use, or something in the verse tells you which image to use (or both), I just have no idea what it is. Perhaps, (and at this point I will only give it a perhaps) "Site confirmer images" that go with another Image/verse combination help you figure out which verse goes with which image... Or maybe it was just done to add a unified theme through the hunt and actually means absolutely nothing beyond that.

Yes, that's what I'm trying say.  Sorry I don't come across so well as you do, Matt.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Or maybe it was just done to add a unified theme through the hunt and actually means absolutely nothing beyond that. Yup.  Very hard to separate the actual content from the context in the images.

Image and word each play their own roles in Chicago and Cleveland.  What seems to be missing is a general respect for the blurring of that boundary.  The directions to a casque are split, rather than shared.  The roles swap as often as needed to create each challenge.  There are different methods ar work in for each casque.  Image 4 puts us in view of the wall but exact details are conveyed by word to count off and dig ar a precise spot.  That did not happen with image 5.  There the final words refer us back to image for a precise perspective fit in an area loosely described by word.  Its the reverse of image 4 when it comes to resolving the final step.

The only thing we know for sure, is that in the two confirmed solutions, the images contribute two things: Clues to the general location (latitudes/longitudes, large familiar landmarks such as buildings, the occasional city or state map, etc.) Depictions of things you'd see if you were in the right place (statues, columns, fenceposts, etc.) So, you could say that the images give you the first major starting point (the city -- or island, in the case of Roanoke), and then give you confirmations that you're in the right place once you've applied the appropriate verse. I don't think there are any other types of visual clues in either of the confirmed solutions, are there?

erexere wrote:: I'm curious about this similarity.  Was there a pupose to using a specific architecture? Sorry. I need to get a better resolution and resize...still not handling the switch to ipad too well. From a purely architectural and artistic standpoint, these are images that are CLASSIC. The Romanesque arch under the horse, which has only ONE foot raised--these are almost "standard" features of a great number of equestrian statues. It is not surprising at all that they would be similar--if you have ever studied art history or the history of statuary and sculpture, you will find these similiarities in hundreds and hundreds of other statues and other locations--public monument almost always followed "classical" standards in the times before The Secret was written. You are reading too much into the similarities in these images.

also that arch is a so so ringer for Sam houston, but is a dead ringer for one in New York City (minus the centaur) so I think SheCrab is right it's just a piece of classical architecture used to tie together the theme and site confirmers.

erexere wrote:: The roles swap as often as needed to create each challenge.  There are different methods ar work in for each casque.  Image 4 puts us in view of the wall but exact details are conveyed by word to count off and dig ar a precise spot.  That did not happen with image 5.  There the final words refer us back to image for a precise perspective fit in an area loosely described by word.  Its the reverse of image 4 when it comes to resolving the final step. that is an unsubstantiated assumption Yes it happened exactly that way - The archer.  over lincolns shoulder 10x13 + site confirmer images The pillars in the image, the pillars in the verse, the path up to the treasure, the brick count + site confirmer images/ In cleveland you had to walk past the wall to find the path up to the treasure ground as it was coming from the opposite direction In chicago you had to go past lincoln to the corner of the park to see the treasure ground and start counting trees. chicago and cleveland worked exactly the same. the clevleand verse was not linear but thats not a big deal

I see, thanks for clearing that up with the tree lines and fence and fixture.  Its good to see how the precision part of location is consistent. I know the arch isnt a unique design.  Lets consider if its use has a specific implementation.

So, what are you looking for here? Are you trying to reverse-engineer the arch to see if it gives any additional insight to the Cleveland solution, or do you think it applies to Houston somehow?

Im not sure yet.  Just some arches to look at.

Bigmatty, I'm leaning towards this feature in image4 as a built-in Houston clue where it hides a useful piece of information to image8.  In image 8 we see a side view of the Houston arch suggested by the shape below Camel and Rhino. It is in front view in image4 to draw our focus to it's importance.  I've been researching equestrian statues for awhile now and I have to say there are many differences among them.

Palencar said there was something special about the centuar's helmet but he couldn't remember... I wonder if that was another clue, that in one of the other images a helmet identification will come into play.

erexere wrote:: I wonder if that was another clue, that in one of the other images a helmet identification will come into play. No probably not.

I don't remember him saying anything special about the helmet, per se--I know he used his brother for a model for the centaur.

Found it, very bottom of article below pic of JJP. hxxp://www.angelfire.com/dragon/egbert/secret.html Its strangely coincidental that the last part of his comment is "My God, its 22 years later."  it reminds me of the helmeted character named Bowman from 2001:Space Osyssey who says "My God, it's full of stars."  Bowman is a statue reference, a pledge of alliegance reference, and A.C.Clark.  We are talking about a helmet here...makes me want to revive the BSG Viper helmet idea... Chicago:  The Bowman statue by Ivan Mestrovic San Francisco:  Verse 7, "Justice for all".  Louis Bowman added the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegience. Houston: helmet wearing Bowman character from 2001 might support a space motif like the Battlestar Galactica helmet which looks much like the Lion jaw fountain at the zoo. Why do I have the feeling Byron asked John to put that hint in the interview?

erexere wrote:: Why do I have the feeling Byron asked John to put that hint in the interview? Well thats easy to answer, Because you are incredbily susceptible to pareidolia.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Well thats easy to answer, Because you are incredbily susceptible to pareidolia.

Very likely the case if I neglected to utilize concrete examples in the context of the hunt.  Citing Keats or Melville in attempt to cross reference something as a possibility is called research.  I had the curiosity to consider Keats Ode to a Nightengale because Byron used words that are atributed to Keats epitaph.  I only considered BSG because Starbuck is a signigicant figure in Melville's work.  That reminds me, the Indominatable from Billy Budd reminds me of one of the lines in verse 6.  I'd like to discuss that later. Your ability to casually dismiss material is annoying and passive-agressive in a friendly forum.  Seriously, how often do people only express either like or dislike without acknowledging a substantiated reason?  Isnt that annoying?  I've made my point about checking facts and submitting a stronger candidate for consideration as an alternative to simply stating your opinion.  Shecrab calls that approach BS.  *shrug*  I think you should be open minded and critical as much as you can be as long as you can back it up with support.

shecrab wrote:: U All you're really saying is that you dont agree.  All im saying is, what if thats the case, what could it mean, does that lead to anything useful?  Im working to bring cohesion to a scheme of yet-to-be-connected pieces.  If something is purely random, then Im sure to fail connecting it to something substantial, but instead I've succeded in raising some questions while you've made yourself look foolish for labeling me with negative connotations. Maltedfalcon, youve received appreciation and understanding from me.  I encourage you to stick to your methods.  You have a sound approach.  I know it was right for Chicago and Cleveland, but I question if the method will work for all the casques.  Keep working on finding those concrete pieces.  Meanwhile, please lay off the pointless banter.  You're better than that.  I'm still shocked that you wont even consider a snow-capped mountain peak as a symbol for the color white, but i understand if you fully expect there to be a little white rock to fit with verse 5. Suffice it to say everyone here, including yourself, has posted a creative idea as a solution one time or another.  If you've chosen to narrow or rigidify your process, i understand it has the benefit of bbeing simple and direct, but don't loose your negativity on others in the forum just because they embrace an alternative approach.  Think about how that affects others. Shecrab, Bigmatty, I hope you can appreciate that I'm not upset and I'm trying to be constructive.  Lets get to the facts.  Has Byron created a puzzle that encourages a creative approach and a need to understand historical and thematic materials?  I think so, and I'm doing my best to form my ideas accordingly.  I'd expect you all to know the difference between the case of a single random piece of information and the instance of multiple (more than one) pieces fitting into an idea (some folks call that a pattern). On a light hearted note:  there are more ways to look at a glass of water than you might think.  Sometimes the glass is half empty, sometimes its half full, sometimes you're suspicious of the water (is it safe to drink?), and sometimes you might be affraid of leaving your fingerprints (which might mean you're guilty...lol).  Come on folks, be a little more kind and thoughtful.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Well thats easy to answer, Because you are incredbily susceptible to pareidolia. Excellent word!

bigmattyh wrote:: Excellent word! maltedfalcon wrote:: Was it possible that BP and JJP spoke to eachother at some point about dropping a hint or two?  Does it seem legit that JJP would've fogotten the significance of the centaurs helmet, given that he came up with the idea for the spot in Cleveland and hes the one who drew the picture?  Why would he even bring it up?  If he intended to deliver a hint, wouldn't the news article be an opportunity to do so? Lets apply some critical thinking to this image, Maltedfalcon, can you explain why you think this parking lot looks like the woman's head and how its justified to use a rotated image?

erexere -- I think it's worth pointing out that the arch in P4 is a direct link to the Cleveland site: hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/images/ ... untain.jpg

Thank you!  I wish I caught that before.  I was really pulling muscles to understand how it might be more than that. That top of the arch feature with the inset gem was cropped out of the image in the Plain Dealer. The columns, arch, wall, fountain, engraved names, overall rectangular shape of area, cultural origins and roadways wraps up every major detail to which connects the dots to the Cleveland casque.  This has noted or hashed out again and again probably already, but just to be sure of some objective criteria where a reason for each image or verse component will connect to an absolute location, street name, or landmark: 1. Use of a tall widely visable city feature to initialize a roadway as a starting path. 2. Conveyance of any connecting roads to main site. 3. Identifying the path within the main site. 4. Use final details to reveal the precise location. I believe any combination of words or image can convey any part or portion of each of these four components.  There are many traditional games that have similar goals.  Pictionary, charades, Trivial Pursuit...and even Scrabble, if my hunch is right about Selby.

erexere wrote:: Maltedfalcon, can you explain why you think this parking lot looks like the woman's head and how its justified to use a rotated image? sure I arbitrarily cut the image along an imaginary non-existent line. and then based on the magnetic lay lines located in Haight Ashbury, home of the flower child movement, I aligned the image with the non-magnetic north (taking into account the right descension of the sun, because after all Lincoln park is 20 blocks west of haight ashbury. And because it wouldnt fit if I left it straight.

maltedfalcon wrote:: sure I arbitrarily cut the image along an imaginary non-existent line. and then based on the magnetic lay lines located in Haight Ashbury, home of the flower child movement, I aligned the image with the non-magnetic north (taking into account the right descension of the sun, because after all Lincoln park is 20 blocks west of haight ashbury. And because it wouldnt fit if I left it straight. Confirmed. +1

"I, Themistocles, am come to you, who did your house more harm than any of the Hellenes, when I was compelled to defend myself against your father's invasion - harm, however, far surpassed by the good that I did him during his retreat, which brought no danger for me but much for him." (Thucydides) Generals.  Thucydides was all about reporting on the activities of military leaders.  Most all of my interpretations have inadvertently led to places that have some link or significance to a military place or person.  Perhaps that observation doesn't narrow anything down but maybe there is something to do with the cultural context.

This seems coincidental.  Last page of Abroad in America (1976) has this picture, Which is so similar to the plaque I found on Sam Hill on the Corbett boulder, the H.G. Wells medalian has the same kind of writing though its hard to see the details in my photo.

erexere wrote:: This seems coincidental. Meaning superfluous and not important? or This seems "not" coincidental, meaning likely important?

Oh sorry, and thanks for helping me realise my misuse of the term. It's unclear to me.  What I'm wondering is how common are these kinds of "coin" type plaques?  I've only noticed these two so far.  I'd like to look into it, thats all.

From my experience of other hunts, when you start picking out connections between disparate things in the real world, it's a sign that your pattern-matching faculties are in overdrive.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: From my experience of other hunts, when you start picking out connections between disparate things in the real world, it's a sign that your pattern-matching faculties are in overdrive. I believe you are correct, sir.

Here's a simplifying idea:  considering how the Chicago and Cleveland solves turned out, there is a central element in each of the images that might be seen as a "close" indicator for what is nearest the treasure ground. I have good reason to believe that these circled points in the other images do this as well.  I think Preiss stood somewhere west of the Miller Outdoor Theater and snapped a photo.  This does work into my utilization of the Golden Spiral.

Well I like the way you are thinking. however didn't Willhouse have a picture of Dunes taken near the CZ that basically matched the dunes in the back of the picture perfectly? That would be more likely, as the Chicago and Cleveland picture elements match exactly.

Yeah, I'm trying to ease up on my heavily interpreted themes.  This is aout finding exactly one location and not about there being more than one right answer.  I don't recall Wilhouses dunes but I assume that was part of his bulldoze attempt.  I'm trying to look for good candidates markers near the center of the image that would indicate a radius of discovery.  A hill is a hill in 360 degrees.  The tilted stone in image 8 could be drawn in an ambiguous orientation, so we shouldn't be stuck on just one direction for perspective.

Not sure if anyone else has made this discovery, but the shape of the largest section of the centaur's tail is exactly rotated 180 and mirrored about a vertical axis when compared to the shape of the curved shape around the rectangle of Cleveland's Greek Cultural Garden.  This method of working map imagery might be applied to the remaining images.

I'm still trying to decipher JJPs claim that there was something special about the helmet.  If someone has something solid to offer, please say something.  I have to scrap a my crappy helmet ideas of the past.  Starting from scratch I try not to overdo things which is helpful when looking for something hiding in plain sight.  Here's something I haven't ruled out yet, HELMET = HELL + MET.  How does one "meet" Hell?  How about going to the "Gates of Hell"?  That is the name of the Rodin arch which features the Thinker and the Three Shades.  I wonder if somehow this artist specific reference isn't a minor theme channel for more than one of the locations. I'm drawn to this conclusion by insights related to Verse 7 and Image 1 pointing to the Palace of the Legion of Honor which is home to Rodin's work, also Verse 11 and Image 3 which led me to Rodanthe in the Outer Banks and disquises a statue in plate.

Has anyone noticed that page 199 has a sketch of a train with the number '82' on it's nose?  Echoes the Verse 1 lines "take your task / to the nine eight two" doesn't it? Page 113 caught my attention, the foreground die read first is "8" as a sum of 1 + 3 +4, and the second die in the background is a partially covered "4".  Together that might be read as "84".  Further in the background we have a dog racing book, I remember those well from spending time with my dad in 1981 at the Multnomah County Kennel Club.  I know this must seem awfully convenient sounding but there is little between as just 7 miles along Interstate-84 is Historic Highway No. 2's Exit 22.  I wager, BP did a little gambling the night the buried a casque in Corbett.  Is it possible there's more sketches in the book to help lead us to useful insights

erexere wrote:: Has anyone noticed that page 199 has a sketch of a train with the number '82' on it's nose?  Echoes the Verse 1 lines "take your task / to the nine eight two" doesn't it? Yeah, I haven't completely abandoned the idea of clues in those pics, though it seems unlikely.

erexere wrote:: I'm still trying to decipher JJPs claim that there was something special about the helmet.  If someone has something solid to offer, please say something. it is an exact physical match for one of the fountain basins in the greek cultural gardens.

Has anyone ever seen a reference to "secrete" a type of helmet worn beneath a hat?

Without the internet...the Chicago and Cleveland solves are far from easy.  I think everyone knows that; hindsight is 20/20 afterall.  I've been stepping into the 1980s mind set with a little John Denver and Judas Preist.  I've been visiting with retired professionals ages 70 and up who worked in jobs like the visitors center for tourism, the art museum, bookstore, and concert hall.  Some of these folks still don't know about the internet.  Its a shock for me to imagine a world without it...well I can remember...barely. Tourism pamphlets , travel magazines, newspapers actually do a good job highlighting the iconic sights like the old warer tower or the terminal tower or the transamerica tower or the superdome or the chicamacomico water tower etc.  These old local features all dr aw the attention of fresh eyes....and perhaps the notice of fairies and gnomes too. Clveland seemed the easiest in its verse length and economy.  Lots of site present dedication to instructions so once finding the two colums at the entrance the rest follows quickly.  Chicago seemed much harder, but a guess at M B or L being initials to a famous person isn't so hard and then the rest falls into place and we see how Preiss begins to finesse his word choices...rumble and hush.. The remaining verses offer even more variations to keep us from getting bored.  He said he thought we would solve them quickly...no way...has it been only 30 years?  We are simply lucky to find anything.

I think the reason they have not been solved is simple. To solve a particular casque, you needed to be very very familiar with the casque location. A person who was only generally familiar with Chicago would not have had a chance. The people who found it knew right where lincolns shoulder was. For instance I believe If I was familiar with Lincoln Park in 1982 when I got my copy of the book I would have been able to solve it. I was familiar with San Francisco especially Golden Gate park, but not Lincoln Park.  It wasn't until a few years ago that I became familiar enough with Lincoln park to recognize it fit. Unfortunately it has changed enough that it doesn't fit perfectly anymore. (missing and moved landmarks) As it happened, in 1982 I was not familiar at all with any of our suspected locations of the casques  I think it  kind of like one of those venn diagrams. Big circle - Readers of the book Tiny slice People who are familiar with the casque Sites and read the book Smallish circle People who are very familiar with the casque sites as a matter of fact, I suspect the only people who are in the tiny slice were the people who found the chicago  casque. Now there are more people in the tiny slice but the locations have changed too much.

I feel like I'm coming at this from a slice perspective.  My strongest foothold also happens to be the most treacherous.  I grew up in Oregon and in New York.  I went Joseph Lane Elementary and John Adams High School.  Never did I wonder about the history of these namesakes before this hunt.  I saw the word Lane on the first line and thought about a thematic connection.  Ponce with flag on mountain infers being first.  Lane was the Oregon Territory 1st Governor.  *ding*  Ponce was also a 1st Governor.  This is a simple mental exercise and leads me to consider how the following line might be interpreted with respect to the Oregon Territory (this includes Washington and Idaho).  I followed highway No.2 to exit 22 and turned to the first historic site with abplaque describing the weight of a large rock on a platform of three square steps extending in all directions.  Whoa, that fits another line with complete accuracy.  I wasnt sure at first where to go next but I learned soon enough that my discovery was a big fat confoict with the FoY theory.  After many misteps I have concluded that P6V9 is correct as an interpretation. That is Preiss went there and constructed a pairing of the verse and image intentionally, but being a capable engineer of writing, i chose to believe he would use a thematic device to light the way to the true pairing.  P6 has Ponce and FoY has Ponce, but those are surface similarities and require no effort of the mind to infer any higher level connection.  The V9 ...SELOY connection is intentional and does require some keen observation to connect so it leads us to more surface level connections and the Planetarium looks like the one creative match to the riddled verse, but other than that there is no theme to deliver us to a place where we say "wow, i thought this through and achieved something awesome."  I'm certain folks are underestimating Preiss.

This is a total afterthought, but interesting to see some classical Greek column/entablature/pediment structures at the heart of three of the solutions I've come up with.  Two of which are no longer present in that form since having been rebuilt. Image 9 - Stanley Park, Vancouver - Lumberman's Arch (original) Image 7 - New Orleans - Roulle Family tomb peaks over the wall of the Cemetery Image 12 - San Juan Island - Officer's Quarters (Replica style of General Grant's home) Image 8 - Hermann Park - Miller Outdoor Theater (original building) I'm not saying all the solutions are required to have this kind of connection.  I just want to note a trend outcome I noticed during my search for answers

I was thinking about asking my old neighbor across the street if she ever knew Preiss personally.  It's been a good 15 years now and I'm sure she doesn't remember me.  I just stopped a couple times to appreciate her flower garden.  I figure I could bring her some nice Iris bulbs as a gift.  I'm use to talking with 90 year olds, she's still a young gal in comparison. I have extreme doubt that she would recall any of Preiss' activities if she did know him, but you never know, she might have an interesting story about the man.  I'll bring the book with me, maybe she'll laugh about it. Preiss used her stories in his Ultimate Dragon compilation so I figure there's got to be some kind of personal connection.

Wow, your neighbor ? What are the odds of that!

I think it would be interesting to study Preiss. It might give us an idea of how the man thought and formulated these puzzles. Perhaps some of his work has references to the Secret.

FB, I shouldn't bother, though it's always nice to bring someone flower bulbs.  I'm just probing the farthest reaches of a desperate idea that Preiss could've checked with a few of his contacts on recommended locations.  We know JJP gave him the idea for where to bury the Cleveland casque. Ultimately, I'd expect anyone having involvement in Preiss' location ideas would get a mention in the book credits. I wonder what J.M. Reaves might offer as a perspective.

I would hope, like JJP if any of BP friends and acquaintances had answers, clues or ideas, they would keep them to themselves as JJP does to honor BPs memory.

could someone help me,could you put a map up showing,if the trail to the casque from start to finish,moved from downtown Chicago to grant PK,trying to see if it went..... east,north,east,north,....if the chicago C,works like clev,maybe the other Cs will work the same way.or at least start downtown in x city  TIA east is to the right of downtown TT in clev ,sorry for crude drawing,for some reason i couldnt load img i wanted to gardens - - - ----------- - - downtown TT------------------  euclid ave

I'm seeing somewhat of a pattern where a distant image match shares one boundary and a few other image matches match the remaining three sides to a basic square boundary.  The remaining verse and image elements define the specifics within the square.

These verses are heavily engineered. A single line or group of lines works to describe, instruct, or allude to some detail needed in order to piece together the final location of a casque. Overall structure is non-linear.  From a perceived start point to a final and precise dig spot, the lines might be tweaked to fit some external idea like a rhyme or a stylization. We might see a 15 line poem best interpreted in this order: Start A: Well known building, lines 13-14 B: Road name, lines 7-8 C: An art sculpture, line 4 D: A book quote, lines 1-3 E: A historical marker, lines 5-6 F: Instruction to walk in a direction a number of paces, line 9 G: Notice the exact details that make pinpointing possible, lines 10-12 End H: This is where you dig, line 15 Structure in this sense is no different than a picture.  A shuffled verse shares many of the same limitations as a picture.  The eye and mind choose what to focus on in as much a random way as the lines in a verse might be set.  A picture might be limited in how well it represents a book quote, or an ordered list of instructions. So there will be some exceptions depending on the context. In any event, this is an exercise in understanding the picture and verse combined. It's matter of record that Preiss thought these would all be solved within months.  That is like saying there are dead giveaways in these puzzles.  It's all a matter of sorting out the key components. Anything "key" will by default have a hinging point whatever it may be. I like to think hinging points have some structure.  Make note of the possibilities. Find any ideas that turn possibilities into real locations and then work to see a course which might not be fully or even partially described and yet see how that connection accommodates an overwhelmingly inclusive themework. The tactics within a single line of verse seem to offer challenging possibilities. A word can have deeper meaning, or be a homonym like 'rain' could mean 'reign' which might fulfill a sense of looking for a clue relevant to a country or castle involving a ruler, or one who reigns. Another could be seeing a sign with the word "FORUM" and picking up on the way the word TOGETHER in the verse connects: "The Forum" as an assembly in Ancient Rome.  'Assemble' simply means "put together".  This looks like a stretch, because it is meant to be, since a person is surely not going to think "hey, the word 'together' can translate to "The Forum of Rome"...it has little or no context from first observance in text alone, but if we are led to a spot with signage saying FORUM, then we might seek something in verse that relates. I combine or draw from the following ideas: Mythology, American History, Art, Architecture, Children's Games, Poetry, Popular Fiction (films or books), and Tourism.

How far from the Chicago casque was that water tower disguised as a windmill in the image? (From google nav.) 7min. How far from the Cleveland casque was the Terminal Tower in the image? 12 min. How far is Kosciuszko Park from the Milwaukee City Hall in image 10's background?  How far from Lake Park's Grand Stair? Mitchell Hall to City Hall: 12 min. City Hall to Kosciusko Park: 12 min. Doesnt prove or disprove anything.  Where we are certain of the city it shouldnt be too hard to disprove a site with reasonable inspections.  Id really like to think Kosciuszko while a good distance from Mitchell Hall or the Grand Stair is still within the city and worth a closer look.

erexere wrote:: Where we are certain of the city it shouldn't be too hard to disprove a site with reasonable inspections. Been certain of San Francisco for a long time, that hasn't in any way helped /prove/disprove a site, as we have candidate sites all over the city. Im not sure what you meant by this post. I should point out, you can get across most urban areas in most cities in less than 15 minutes. So timings wise that really doesn't help narrow anything down at all.

erexere wrote:: These verses are heavily engineered. We might see a 15 line poem best interpreted in this order: Start A: Well known building, lines 13-14 B: Road name, lines 7-8 C: An art sculpture, line 4 D: A book quote, lines 1-3 E: A historical marker, lines 5-6 F: Instruction to walk in a direction a number of paces, line 9 G: Notice the exact details that make pinpointing possible, lines 10-12 End H: This is where you dig, line 15 This is interesting, can you apply this to Chicago and Cleveland Specifically? Earlier in this thread, I showed how the Chicago and Cleveland were actually laid out in a totally linear fashion from the iconic image  to the dig site. So I would be interested in seeing your take on this.

My post about time and distance was pretty pointless except I think folks tend to gravitate too closely to one clue while disregarding the case where there are other options.  Chicago and Cleveland are not so similar in terms of the verse.  You've done a great job piecing together the image.  It's verse where things get incredibly confusing. I suddenly find myself working on Houston again, just when I thought everyone had plumbed all the possibilities I discovered that Alfred Glassel holds the world record for largest fish caught by rod and reel.  The fish is mounted on a wall precisely north of the location I am proposing.  Thematically it fits.  Ahab's Moby Dick = Glassel's 1560 pound black marlin. As far as methodology goes, we've been looking at houston as a bit of a Chicago styled adventure with a few stops along a path.  The Cleveland verse simply described a curved road and country above the site and then the details of a rectangle, wall, and columns within a close range area.  I believe the Houston verse shares the same approach.  Only the 982 train is a good distance away, but everything else seems very close.

More and more I'm gathering the sense that Preiss drew from a very deep well of synonyms and homonyms resulting in confusion when we try to resolve these raw verses. Here's my take on telling the intern to get me a bagel with cream cheese and a cup of coffee, Grant this wish A circle covered, beaten spool And with lampooned Colonel's chalice filled

My casque-box replica project:  as expensive as plexiglass is I should really try to get it right.  I've got six sides to make a rough cube shape.  Dimensions as follows: (2) 6.25" x 6.25" x 0.25" (4) 6" x 6" x 0.25" It's basically a bottom and a top capping four walls joined together simple 90 degree style.  No mortice or fancy joint making here...It's designed to withstand pressure from above but not so much from the sides. Cost is about $40.

It might be helpful for folks to think about how each line of set of lines best describes a very specific object or place.  Even the quotes or literary influences have a point to get across.  I no longer think anything is just fluff or stylized.  Preiss knew his shit.  He analyzed each line and chose specific words and structure to guide the treasure hunter each time to a place that fit both loosely and exactly (if that makes sense.) Sounds from the sky in verse 7 is just too general as a mention of seagulls.  The place where jewels abound works the same way in being too general -yes, specifically New Orleans, but think about how it shares a further specific meaning such as the ornate lamps of Canal St.

True, although there is an omnipresent -seagull population flying above this local I agree, seagulls isnt fixed enough. however I am comfortable  with this  understanding: Not far away  - Just south/southwest of the park High posts are three  - Sutro tower on mt Sutro named after SF Mayor Joseph Sutro Education and Justice  Mt Sutro home to UCSF, UCSF Med School and also a law school For all to see    - plainly visible from anywhere in lincoln park Sounds from the sky  Sutro Tower is the largest radio and television tower in the area. Near ace is high - Highway 1  Leaves Golden Gate park and goes right near Lincoln park Running north, but first across  Runs north but just past Lincoln park has to run accross the Golden Gate.

First: the first hint to limit our options in some way. Second: a close but still distant feature or landmark. Third: from the perspective of the casque's immediate location. Remaining lines describe the coordinating parts. This seemed to be the best overall fit as an approach for my theories. V4 First = somewhere to do with Italy (the only single nation which is technically "beneath" and entirely landlocking (having enclave status) exactly two countries: Vatican City and the Republic of San Marino. Second = nearest a curved road Third = in a small rectangular plot behind the wall V12 First = anwhere with M and B in stone Second = nearest road named Congress Third = over the left shoulder of "L sits" (seated Lincoln statue)'' Doesn't seem like this idea plays well with some of the other verses, verse 8 for instance.  That Preiss sure was a tricky bugger.

erexere wrote:: My casque-box replica project:  as expensive as plexiglass is I should really try to get it right.  I've got six sides to make a rough cube shape.  Dimensions as follows: (2) 6.25" x 6.25" x 0.25" (4) 6" x 6" x 0.25" It's basically a bottom and a top capping four walls joined together simple 90 degree style.  No mortice or fancy joint making here...It's designed to withstand pressure from above but not so much from the sides. Cost is about $40. Finished box.  Looks like the real deal.  I wrapped it in cling wrap (it's red because all I had left in the house was "holiday style".)  I used a ton of "16" type acrylic solvent to weld the pieces together.  It's very sturdy.  Below are pics of Egbert's recovery to compare.

Nice! The actual casques were 3/16" thick (so just a little thinner than yours), and sealed with clear caulk in an attempt to make them waterproof.

Yeah, I hoped to introduce the best possible model for the purpose of thoroughly testing a GPR.

That makes sense, I did the same thing about 7-8 years ago to prove that they could not be metal detected. and they could not.

what if "seeking the columns" is universal?  Preiss could've sought interesting column-type landmarks and built them into his journey from points A to B.  Obviously that's a given in the Cleveland solution.  Perhaps it doesn't need to be said for the others.  Where there isn't a good Greek column available a tall and straight type tree might serve in it's place.

erexere wrote:: what if "seeking the columns" is universal?  Preiss could've sought interesting column-type landmarks and built them into his journey from points A to B.  Obviously that's a given in the Cleveland solution.  Perhaps it doesn't need to be said for the others.  Where there isn't a good Greek column available a tall and straight type tree might serve in it's place. Please remember he said specifically to find a casque you need one picture and one verse So no I don't thing they are universal.

All I'm saying is there is no telling how much of a role some of the thematic points play in this.  Not much to go on really, except the Greekness of it all.

It's all Greek to me. Lol

I was just thinking "beginning, middle, end" and I realized what hasn't been discussed anywhere in the forums as far as I can tell that Preiss may have utilized an appreciation for the game of chess in his methodology.  Everyone here likely knows the game of chess, and surely some of us can play a decent game, but who among us understand the depth and style of each of these early masters: Francois Philidor, Emanuel Lasker, Jose Capablanca, Alexander Alekhine, Paul Morphy, Harry Nelson Pillsbury, Mikhail Botvinik, and many others?  Everyone has talked about Bobby Fischer or Gary Kasparov, but knowing better the players much further in the past really adds a new level of appreciation for them and the game in general. What I'm getting at is the way in which chess works and what separates a mediocre player from a great player.  Before you roll your eyes and hurt yourselves, I just want to say I consider myself less than mediocre.  I have a terrible win percentage, but I then I have a lot of experience playing against chess masters and I've played through many many published games involving all the names of players I've just mentioned.  What I've learned in all my mediocre experience is that the game is on one level just a collection of simple rules, e.g. pawns move forward, bishops diagonally, rooks on rank and file, etc., but it also involves strategy.  Mediocre players tend to perceive strategies based on the pieces themselves, but great players perceive the possibilities and actions that relate to the pieces in concert with a variety of considerations related to their opponent's pieces and even style.  There's something in chess which when perceived is very beautiful, elegant and even simple, given that when you see it, it adds a sense of clarity in understanding from beginning, middle, and to end. I say all this because I think Preiss had this kind of appreciation.  His solutions, whether fully understood or not, in Chicago and Cleveland, seem to have a chess game like elegance.  The beginning lines introduce us to a wide range of possibilities but then the middle puts us right at the boundaries of where we will find the casque and finally the right visual and word elements work in concert to bring about a certainty, a checkmate. Strategic themes make a great game of chess.  Random moves make a farce.  I believe Preiss used his own talents, a knowledge of history, literature, architecture, and people united in a thematic approach.  I believe we will eventually figure things out, but we have to start appreciating the smaller picture, the etudes, before we grasp the bigger picture.

homophones. also, alternate word meanings, usually depending on their part of speech.  Here's a few examples, hxxp://magoosh.com/gre/2011/secondary-m ... r-the-gre/ I've been making recent efforts into this territory as well as etymological origin.  It might be easy to label this strategy as something to avoid, but please give it some thought, you might unlock some surprises.  Yes, it is a challenge, it's like looking for a tiny needle in a tiny haystack that fits in the eye of a needle in a haystack.

The final step in for each is concluding where to dig. From what I've seen, most folks seem to pick and choose dig spots with more latitude than I think sensible.  Years ago, a person, kibitz I think, suggested digging a hole a giant step or an arbitrary distance from a smoke stack.  maltedfalcon has dug repeatedly around the base of the balustrade, many folks have dug in other areas around trees, at the base of a lighthouse, and at other interesting places, but that's just it, is it about finding an interesting place or is it about understanding the clues in how they make for a definite spot? Cleveland gives such specific directions that I'm sure it would've been found immediately in the first year of the hunt if someone had just made the connection to the Cultural Gardens in Cleveland right away.  After 22 years, when Egbert and his pal got there, there seemed to be some intervention or alteration to the absolute location.  They dug up the whole rectangle of ground to find that casque, which I might add was broken from the forces of nature and passing time in an area with heavy drainage. I'm very focused these days and I do what I can to check my own errors.  I'm not so much about telling anyone they are wrong, but my alternative suggestions are in effect the same thing.  I hope people aren't being too put off.  I know from PM's that some folks do appreciate the perspectives, but it's not making a dent in changing anyone's minds about where the casques are "most likely" to be found (if ever). What I'm getting to now is the idea that there's a final conclusion that must make some sense.  I didn't see Chicago as too difficult given the 10x13 grid of trees and the fence and fixture as a pretty good way of suggesting a precise location.  It's unknown, however, that the fence and fixture were precision locators as in exactly on a line of intersection, or just relatively close to the casque, as in somewhere between two objects, thus making it a guess to the final spot.  I recall maltedfalcon saying there was a missing tree in the grid and that spot was where the casque was found.  I've never seen any confirmation of that, so If there is, I'd like to see it.  I have a feeling there's still a bit of information that was overlooked in regards to the found casques, which in turn affects those theories developed on an empirical basis, i.e. what worked in the past, must work in the future, unless proper justification otherwise. I've been more or less content with some of my conclusions lately.  In Houston, I think it's about locating a spot through a sight-line-focus; that's an aligning of an a point through the center of another in order to present an exact location on the ground.  In Milwaukee, I'm thinking it's simply at the base of a tree's southern foot, but it involves lining up a building spire with an equestrian statue.  In Boston, I think it's about being directly in front of the gates of a hotel but inside a waist high fenced in area centered on a nearby lamp post with a metal box behind it.  In San Francisco, I believe it's immediately in front of a bench over looking the Golden Gate Bridge; finding the bench is the trick.  In New Orleans, I believe it's lining up a statue with a church spire for a line and intersecting the line with a point of reference taken from the peak of a tomb labeled No.21.  In Vancouver BC, I believe it's finding the center of one of three giant checkerboards and walking a specific number of steps west (compass not needed) based on walking straight along the diagonal through the east corner of the checkerboard (totally love the simplicity there).  In Corbett, I'm looking at walking 12 paces, but the precise measure of steps ends up not being a factor since whether you are 5 feet or 6.5 feet tall you're stride won't affect the outcome when you realize a perfectly shaped oval of space makes the most sense that you'll dig in it's very center which coincides with a direct line between the largest rock in the area and the largest nearby tree; the view of the river in the background is a perfect match for the outline presented at the base of image 6 (reversed 180 exactly like the curved road is portrayed in the shape of the centaur's tail in image 4 for Cleveland).  If you can believe pigs share some traits with mankind, and you don't object to strongly to being led on a red herring in St. Augustine, then San Juan Island uses a picket fence as the intersecting point between a flagpole and a historic plaque on a rock.  In Charleston, there's twin (fraternal twin names: Edwin/Edwina) lighthouses in Cape Romaine where a white house use to sit; i'm not sure how this one works yet, but there's bound to be a good way to use the clock in the image.  In North Carolina, a spot on the Outer Banks near Roanoke gives an opportunity to dig below a T shaped pole when facing north.  These are all conclusions of how a precise location might be presented.  I'm excited to test everyone of my ideas at some point in my life, but if anyone reading this would like to give it a go, please feel free...just don't let the local authorities catch you mucking up the place.

Unknown: Cleveland gives such specific directions that I'm sure it would've been found immediately in the first year of the hunt if someone had just made the connection to the Cultural Gardens in Cleveland right away.  After 22 years, when Egbert and his pal got there, there seemed to be some intervention or alteration to the absolute location.  They dug up the whole rectangle of ground to find that casque, which I might add was broken from the forces of nature and passing time in an area with heavy drainage erexere, im from cleve. and as a child to age 12, i lived not far from the gardens,when MLK was liberty blvd i bought the secret in 83,and had barley looked at it, while i was living in fla.,on vac,fall of 83,i left the book at my aunts house in ohio,got it back 3 yrs later,then left it aunts house again, anyway the few maybe 50x i looked at the imgs, i did notice the ohio,and did not put a V with it, knowing the V would not help in finding the casque unless you  could put the img together,and if you did get to the gardens,you would have to go through the Vs you would have to have seen the TT, (which i didnt until after egbert) to recognize what the euclid was for, then the liberity the (L&bell)  would have prob made me turn around and look at the soldiers and sailors monument anyway i always thought you had to be real close for the V to work and you see and know it is right LOL, the monument,looking west from euclid, you can see the TT too hxxp://goo.gl/maps/tIQEp hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/page/22148509/4_solution i live 40 mile west of cleve now,a yr or 2 ago i tried to get to the gardens,couldnt for whatever reason ill try again this year,maybe do a short vid if i can,no guarantees we'll see

cw0909, thanks for sharing your story.  I suppose it might not be easy at all even for someone who lives a few miles away.  When the hunt was fresh off the shelf I suppose everyone was in a state of wonder.  Now we're at a turning point with these forums as we benefit from sharing our thoughts and discoveries.  I find it hard to settle on anything for certain, especially with the images.  They are crafty and only a very good visual positive will drop a person exactly into the key framework that makes the verse look as simple as butter on bread.  I feel that way only about Corbett, since I've been there in person.  I feel like I failed to take a picture of the exact angle that matches two or three visuals.  If only I spent a few minutes to line up the shot right. I think there's a good chance a casque will be found in San Francisco.  I'm not too excited about Boston, there's a bunch heavy looking bushes growing in what I think of as the "zone".  I have a tiny shot at a very kind and generous friend digging in Vancouver BC this summer but that's based on a very tight time window.  Also, I've been very chatty with New Orleans folks who might look into my theory.  Milwaukee still looks like a hot topic.  Maybe we'll see something happen in the warmer months.

erexere, after this much time i think a lot of the visual clues, have changed a great deal, so it has become much harder,but it is fun trying

cw0909 wrote:: erexere, after this much time i think a lot of the visual clues, have changed a great deal, so it has become much harder,but it is fun trying We've gathered quite a bit of information on the changes in the various locations.  Here's my version and summary: 1. San Francisco: No more Betsy Ross pole, relocated Lincoln marker, lots of landscape activity (added soil). 2. Lighthouse Island: very limited tourism access, overgrown, Keeper's home demolished. 3. Rodanthe: hurricane weather. 6. Corbett: no changes, (verified). 7. Basin Street: new soil work, new tree plantings, flooding 8. Hermann Park: new landscaping and soil additions to rebuild the amphitheater hill. 9. 18 steps west of checkerboard: no changes in a rugged and natural park setting. 10. Kosciuszko Park: removal of stone benches around art object (Girl feeding squirrel stolen in 1977), no other changes. 11. Somerset: bush growth, possible flooding 12. Pickett fence at American Camp: relatively unchanged, fence has been maintained, repaired, and repainted.

Thoughts on the litany...(just idle brainstorming). What are the treasures the Fair Folk bring? Easily named, and lovingly told: Fairies of England proudly bear Garnet, crown-jewel of their Queen Brilliant as eyes of Celtic folk, Cold morning green, their Emerald The Hadas of Iberia: Sapphire, shy as a wild field flower Turquoise the Fays of France keep: stone Rare as a blue midsummer's day Dwarves' treasure: purple Amethyst, Imperial star of Germany The Opal of the Lowland Gnomes: A cloud of shining, shifting smoke A Topaz is the Russian prize: The royal sunstone, frozen fire Peridot of old Italy: Antique, and olivine, and rich The Ruby out of Araby Scarlet of desert sky at dawn Africa's Diamond, earth-born star, Bright harvest of the midnight rock The Nymphs of Hellas cherish sweet Aquamarine, spring-water clear From far Cathay, the dragon's Pearl: Chaste, perfect as the silver moon Each jewel in its weird-wrought casque, Gift of the Viking craftsmen Elves. Wonder and glory thirteen-fold: These are the treasures the Fair Folk bring. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Each image has an indicator for a month. This one is relatively obscure...Triangle -> 3 -> March. This gives the birthstone Aquamarine. The litany entry for this gem is: The Nymphs of Hellas cherish sweet Aquamarine, spring-water clear This gives us Greece, which provides a confirmer for the Grecian garden. More than that, perhaps it also gives us a hint for the drinking fountain. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The month indicator in this image is simpler - the watch at 1.00 gives us January -> Garnet. The litany entry is: Fairies of England proudly bear Garnet, crown-jewel of their Queen Roanoke is associated with England and the Lost Colony. But beyond that, the Elizabethan Gardens which feature in the verse were named after the English Queen, and there's a statue of her there. Preiss confirmed to Egbert that the nationalities were involved in the locations. Since the nationality is established directly by linking the month and birthstone of the image to the relevant couplet in the litany, this is tantamount to confirming that the litany holds clues. I've been wondering what other hints might be buried in there. Consider Boston for example... A very obscure month confirmer, eight gold squares on the globe base, gives us August -> Peridot. Peridot of old Italy: Antique, and olivine, and rich Could the globe be the antique...? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This is even more tenuous, but I'm also still interested in the possibility of the introduction in general containing hints which are connected with the litany. The most striking example of such a clue is for image 6. Nine flowers gives us September -> Sapphire. The Hadas of Iberia: Sapphire, shy as a wild field flower Note how the couplet reminds us of the flowers in the image which gave us September. It seems to me that BP has gone to some trouble to weave these links into the puzzle. Connected with this, the introduction relates how... For slow centuries, the exotic Dracs and Fadas from the Riviera had sported and dozed on the beaches of new-found Florida . Perhaps the metal-clashing landfall of the Conquistadores took them by surprise and they fled without taking time to disenchant their Fountain of Youth . Hadas and Fadas are the same thing; the words have the same root. And the picture actually shows us a conquistadore, of course; Ponce de Leon. These clues are hard to ignore.

These are very good points WR.

WR,great post,now i have to go back and read it again and again wheres slappy,she always tried to find a connect

The other thing that nags at me is the various orderings of 12. The order of the twelve verses The order of the twelve images The order of the months of the year The order in which the nationalities are set out in the litany The order in which the nationalities are set out on the map I'm intrigued by the idea that hidden somewhere in there, perhaps there's a mathematical key which ties images to verses. The mechanism seems so intricate, is it really random, with no key...? He must have made a decision, whether to bury a key in there somewhere, or let people hunt for it when it didn't really exist. Which did he choose...?

I agree, somewhere there is a logical indisputable method that associates image to verse to gem

maltedfalcon wrote:: I agree, somewhere there is a logical indisputable method that associates image to verse to gem Perhaps that is the secret...

.

Thinking about Chicago and Cleveland, I recall Preiss' response to the Chicago finders, "you have the right answer, I don't see why you can't find the right spot."  It sounds like once a person is on the right track it's practically a given that they should have no trouble finding the right spot.  Just like figuring out the Grecian Gardens in Cleveland, although it was tediously difficult to dig up the casque, it's actual location in the plot was a no brainer. This has me thinking that all the locations are answers in themselves and they each have some very very telling and obvious setup.

or once you figure it out you look at the verse and pictures and go oh thats so obvious how could I have missed it before.

maltedfalcon wrote:: oh thats so obvious how could I have missed it before.

We'll surely have the retrospective doh!, but that's not the point I'm making.  I'm beginning to see that when people think they are close, they will know it for a variety of reasons.  They won't have the sense of "how could I have missed that?!" because that's not how this is designed.  Cleveland was super simple and I have no doubt that was the solution Preiss expected to be solved within the first 30 days.  Chicago is actually a bit more complicated.  The lat/long numbers are hidden in the shape of the windmill arms whereas the lat long in Cleveland appear in regular print.  Cleveland has a consistent theme of Greek = Greek and then gives exact directions to the casque.  Hard to believe it took 22 years!!  Chicago has pretty general instructions and fits together nicely, but it presents a larger number of things to consider that are strewn about a path presented as many ornaments on the Troll's head and hat.  I believe there was something visually perfect that puts Chicago's exact spot into perspective.  I think that detail was never revealed because they were so close and ended up using a photo from Preiss to fine tune their efforts.  Minor changes to the area in Grant Park have made it difficult or even impossible to know what that specific detail was.  I'm just making a guess that something was missed and nobody saw a point in verifying since the casque was in hand and the excitement of getting a jewel took over. I think the closest anyone has come to finding a casque without finding one is Maltedfalcon at the Palace of the Legion of Honor.  Some changes have happened there as well, making things far more challenging and no longer so obvious.  I give him credit for all his work, it's a very huge task now that the Flagpole AND the Lincoln Marker have gone from their original locations.

Okay, this is kind of a long shot and if it weren't for the fact that the landscape of the hunt has changed (in many, many senses) and that it's been thirty years already, I'd probably feel like this was cheating. But I don't. So: How accessible is Palencar? I know he doesn't know the solutions and is sort of in the dark about a lot of the hunt, but has he been willing to answer questions about The Secret? Specifically, I'm thinking that it would be very helpful if he could give some information about which elements in the images were taken from photographs BP gave him. We've established that he doesn't have the original Polaroids and that he doesn't know the locations in which the photos were taken, but I still think it would be a massive help. This is especially true for me in the case of Image 11 - the other images at the very least can be narrowed down to a city or state via landmarks. But 11 has me completely stymied. So I guess that's my question: how accessible Palencar has been.

Personally, I wouldn't want any hints or any information from him at all. That would spoil the fun and the challenge. But it might be prudent to ask him to make sure he isn't the only one who knows about the casque locations. Maybe put the information down on paper and hide it in a safe or something.

I really don't want hints but it would be nice for some feedback.  If the signs are clear as can be and we know there's been a definite interruption in the landscape or markers needed to solve the puzzle then I can understand wanting clarification.  I think we're getting kinda close to that point with San Francisco.  Malted has done lots of digging and the solution looked very favorable.  I think collectively we have all worked out some good solutions and even dug a few holes.  Maybe we can offer a sum total of all of our efforts in an easy to peruse presentation for Palencar to review.  He doesn't have to give us hints, but if he knows something for sure and it looks like there's some intervening reason preventing a recovery he can tell us, or he can simply weigh in and say he likes someone's approach, it looks like a good interpretation of the visual clues.  I would expect he'd know his own drawings best.  I have a feeling he's in the dark as much as we are about the verses. I suggest we all pitch in for one gigantic troll sized care package with tasty treats, flowers, and anything else to show our appreciation for his work, send it to him with our gigantic summary and then see if he responds in his own time.  I nominate forest_blight as the contact person.

I don't know how accessible JJP is but I always theorized he has a better grasp of these clues than anyone. He did after all paint them. Maybe one day he will change his mind on helping us. If he was forth coming he could tell us what some of the objects he painted were. He might remember tid bits or we could show him some of the obscure clues and ask him, "is this a hydrant?" "is this a dragons head?" and so on. I would, for one, love more clues. We have lost too many to time.

Unknown: I nominate forest_blight as the contact person. Um, no! I'm the guy who doesn't want hints, remember? I don't peek at crossword answers, either. It completely defeats the purpose of having a puzzle in the first place. If the answers are known by NO ONE, that would be awful. I would feel comforted knowing that if we ever do agree on a solid solution, there's someone we can submit it to. But I want ZERO hints. We're collectively smart enough to figure this out on our own. I am 100% against approaching JJP with anything less than a SOLUTION, meaning (a) we all agree that we've found the exact location for a casque but it has been destroyed, or (b) we have an actual, mud-encrusted casque in our hands and can provide him with photographic proof. I haven't seen any truly convincing solutions since johann and SoonerFan correctly identified the Cleveland location and Egbert dug it up. I'm sorry to burst bubbles, but I haven't seen any SOLID clues since the Fiske lamppost was discovered in Montreal. I recommend you review the events surrounding the P4 / V4 Cleveland find in this forum to see how absolutely certain people were when the casque site was identified. And see: hxxp://www.angelfire.com/dragon/egbert/secret.html When the next casque site is identified, there won't be any ambiguity or debate -- we'll know it's right.

That I can go along with.

Unknown: Um, no! I'm the guy who doesn't want hints, remember? I don't peek at crossword answers, either. It completely defeats the purpose of having a puzzle in the first place. If the answers are known by NO ONE, that would be awful. I would feel comforted knowing that if we ever do agree on a solid solution, there's someone we can submit it to. But I want ZERO hints. We're collectively smart enough to figure this out on our own. I am 100% against approaching JJP with anything less than a SOLUTION, meaning (a) we all agree that we've found the exact location for a casque but it has been destroyed, or (b) we have an actual, mud-encrusted casque in our hands and can provide him with photographic proof. I haven't seen any truly convincing solutions since johann and SoonerFan correctly identified the Cleveland location and Egbert dug it up. I'm sorry to burst bubbles, but I haven't seen any SOLID clues since the Fiske lamppost was discovered in Montreal. I recommend you review the events surrounding the P4 / V4 Cleveland find in this forum to see how absolutely certain people were when the casque site was identified. And see: hxxp://www.angelfire.com/dragon/egbert/secret.html When the next casque site is identified, there won't be any ambiguity or debate -- we'll know it's right. I don't understand, this forum has identified at least three casque sites (just like in cleveland). After Cleveland was identified, Egbert took off and dug it up. Roanoke, Boston and Florida are clearly casque sites. With the exception of Eric, I think most of us agree. What we need now are diggers willing to take a chance. I don't think any of us are going to agree 100% even if we have the exact spot under our noses.

I'm not questioning the theories that Roanoke, Boston, and St. Augustine hold casques. I'm quite sure they do. My diatribe above was in response to folks wanting to petition JJP for clues. Dig all you want, but I would consider approaching JJP with anything short of a casque or a certain solution for a specific square yard of dirt unacceptable. IMHO.

Listening to Gustav Mahler's 9th symphony has helped me appreciate The Secret.  It has a lot of movement.  I find myself lost in wonder for a good 20-30 seconds and then I have to push myself to ask "what's happening...now" and then I start thinking about things and again pushing myself to be an active engaged listener.  It's never boring, it's just so intense that you have to be present. I think Preiss' verses, those that we have still failed to fully understand are much like Mahler's work, not specifically his alone, but as an example of the process of creating something that keeps you filled with wonder and has many steps, each provoking you to be very present and yet appreciate the whole.

The rate that these sites are changing and/or deteriorating, is far outpacing the rate at which actual progress is being made on the hunt.  Unless something changes, it is getting extremely unlikely that any more casques will be found. ...But at least the mystery will live on!

My most profound idea thus far is that the first line of each of the verses represents a two-fold purpose that initially draws focus in the right direction and once most of the clues come together the exact location of the casque contains an alternate meaning referencing again that first line. I have found several verses fit this idea.  Verse 1 begins with 'Fortress north' and my theory develops around the idea that the Alamo represents the focus of Texas and its conflict with Mexico's Santa Anna.  It was a great stand but a terrible loss for the early US, which resulted in a return battle, victorious, through the leadership of Sam Houston.  Deciphering clues leading to Hermann Park in Houston, my theory takes me to the base of a light tower at the base ofa hill.  An exact straight line from the pointy apex of the theater building through the four equal sided face center of the cold polished winged metal sculpture representing a division of labor from three tasks, Atropos, one of the three fates of Greek mythology, a spot is found at the base of the Miller Hill.  How does the first line refer to this spot?  A fortress is also a "base" of military operations.  This spot is north of the sculpture.  The first line could also be the last, saying "base of hill to the north".

Went to the Indians game today and couldn't help but keep looking at the Terminal Tower on our way in. This hunt is really something. I've learned more history from this thing than I did in 6 years of history classes. Just wanted to share that. Here's to hoping a casque is found soon. Cheers!

Back at ya Deuce!  Lets simply put things together, remove the obstacles, and produce a casque. Now dont be afraid to take a fresh look at these puzzles.  The Chicago and Cleveland puzzles make sense...the rest should mke sense too. Just keep asking yourself what is required to justify any sensible location.  Take some pointers from the many individual views here but be sure to make a stand for any shred of sense that comes to you.  Good luck!

I make myself laugh seeing that list of "great" achievements in the things thought impossible category.  I want to add to it all the ridiculous things I've attempted like how long I held my breath or hiking up a glacier without any gear or a long list of jackassness.  Really I thought it should be important for people to stay positive and don't let thoughts of failure pry their confidence from the goal.  We need Egbert to come back and boost morale.  We need a casque to be found to get things rolling.

Some presumptions about long journeys between point A and point B leave very little word or visual clues to describe the requisite components that are needed to locate an exact spot. Of course it's always dependent on the given layout and surroundings and each situation may well be different or unique. Here's some examples to consider, try to think of each A, B, C, or D each needing a line or two of verse or an image clue to coordiate a given opportunity for X: The last of these should look familiar, it's my theory for Houston.

I've been thinking that the real methodology is fun.  Folks aren't having fun.  They're finding tree stumps and being stumped.  They're shutting themselves in and eating their last remaining stockpiles of Twinkies...now that's no fun unless they're sharing. My biggest departure from the consensus is Oregon(image 5) and Washington(verse 9) stripping the prize away from the opposite corner of the country's FOY.  Again, I take a defiant leap from Montreal in favor of Vancouver, but I actually base my theory on the Legeater lamp.  Apparently everyone wants to make love to the lamp and then hang around smoking a cigarette.  I know it's completely unprecedented to ask the question "why the leg of a lamp?" rather than just note the lamp location and then look around for the next visual/verse match, but I find a wealth of significance in learning that it's Lord Mount Stephen's lamp and it's a clear logic to take some simple elements from that and apply it to the quest for understanding. Why the foot/leg/beast?  I believe this hunt is largely centered on all things "Secret" or "secrete" (helmet) and is our foremost hint that we will find our locations by searching for things relating to defense or relating to heads.  In Cleveland, it was a wall, that which creates the border between two countries but also is a measure of defense.  In Chicago, it was an illustration of a castle-on-a-hat, castles are major defensive structures but also tend to be the home or head of governance.  I see this lamp leg in Montreal and I think "yeah, that's a head eating a leg, but it's still just a leg."  If this hunt is about heads, then what does the beast have to do with anything?  I'll leave this question unsettled for now.  What was Lord Mount Stephen best known for?  The Canadian Pacific Railway, a transcontinnental rail that takes us from Montreal to Vancouver B.C.  If there is anything to this line of thinking, then I'd hope to find something largely recognized and not too obscure relating to either or both a cougar and a train of the CP-Railway.

hoping for something not too obscure in Vancouver BC, I find a miniature train featuring the first engine No.374 of the CP-Rail.  I also find an amazing story about a cougar hunt that pretty much closed the whole park down and had every hot shot hunter and hunting dog on the trail to kill the cougar that had been nabbing the angora goats from the Zoo at Stanley Park.  The cougar was stuffed and put on display at the Pavillion. I'm unable to verify at this time that the stuffed cougar was on display when Preiss may have been in the park to bury the casque.

erexere wrote:: My biggest departure from the consensus is Oregon(image 5) and Washington(verse 9) stripping the prize away from the opposite corner of the country's FOY.  Again, I take a defiant leap from Montreal in favor of Vancouver, but I actually base my theory on the Legeater lamp.  Apparently everyone wants to make love to the lamp and then hang around smoking a cigarette.  I know it's completely unprecedented to ask the question "why the leg of a lamp?" rather than just note the lamp location and then look around for the next visual/verse match, but I find a wealth of significance in learning that it's Lord Mount Stephen's lamp and it's a clear logic to take some simple elements from that and apply it to the quest for understanding. Why the Leg of the lamp?  Because in all the other found casques the images in the picture are local to the casque.  Without the Internet, your "Logical" leaps would be even more obtuse. How would the person in Vancouver, who has never been to Montreal even begin to solve this puzzle. Plain and simple, St Louis is a far better fit to this image/verse than what you have come up with in vancouver. but as a group we set it aside because the legeater lamp is in Montreal. If we are going to ignore the lamp, and your convoluted connection lamp -> vancouver basically is that.  Then lets re-look at St Louis, its a better fit. The lamp was mass-produced. so it you want me to consider vancouver as a possible solution, find a lamp there.  Thats the same criteria St. Louis has.

I've been working on a first line analysis as it echoes in some way the conditions in which the casque is discovered. I posted a bunch of ideas before, many turned out wrong, rather I've come up with a new more preferable list. Its my first real take on a backbone theory.  Alternate word definitions are used and some synonyms.  Nothing funky in terms of word play which is a huge improvement.

Has anyone ever made a connection with the Fair People and the World's Fairs? Both Chicago and Cleveland held world's fairs and Grant Park was part of the original fairgrounds. Many of the other proposed cities were also World's Fair hosts.

I remember we had some theories about the exposition in St. Louis. But a world's fair or exposition was never held in Roanoke AFAIK, and it would be odd for such a rule to apply for some locations and not others.

When it comes down to it, I suspect Preiss knew he was designing each location for those with a personal connection to the clues.  The internet blurs that line to a degree, still the advantage will be in someone's home court.  The question then is how to make it so its not too easy for a local and not impossible for a tourist?

I don't think it's crazy to assume that more or less he stuck to things that were pretty accessible. It's unlikely (in my opinion) that the NYC one for example is going to be in a small out of the way park in Forest Hills, simply because you can spend a lifetime living in the city and never hear of or stumble upon some of the hundreds of parks. He was a history buff, but that doesn't make him an on the ground expert of 12 different cities, and we know he flew around with the jewels & a shovel rather than having a carefully orchestrated team. We also know that he sent the artist polaroids and possibly notes/books on the places. It's probably likely that the locations are all findable in tourist guides/info guides/place of interest maps, etc, which I think would keep it fair for tourists to have a shot, or for people to come from out of state. Because, seriously, if they're all in McDonald Park ( https://plus.google.com/112705534128601 ... l=us&hl=en ) type places we're effed anyway & should just give up.

I'm not saying Preiss needed to be an expert on any given area.  If anything, his fresh and first time perspective was his main resource.  Imagine, he lands into an area, looks around the skyline for a tall distinctive structure, see what nearby historically or culturally distinct park setting is nearby (within a few miles, the furthest distance at which you can see a tall object).  He slapped his own personal spin on each maybe some disconnected reference to Lincoln, a hat motif, or a folklore/fantasy/fun kind of idea.

Need to ask a question, soneone on here might have done the research already. Who owns The Secret? I know Preiss Vis Pub went Chapter 5 and then sold to a company. Do they own it ? Can the rights to that book be bought? Any info would be helpful.

I don't have the info off hand but the info is on this board somewhere, Relatively soon after he died there was an announcement that the rights to all his publishing properties had been bought. however important to note that did not include any information about the solutions. which remained in his private papers and are still owned by his widow.

Brick Tower Press own the rights to the book. Would be fun to bring out an annotated Kindle edition. hxxp://www.bricktowerpress.com/

I was just revisiting some of the rules of the Secret, specifically, "They may be hidden in your city or your local park or even in your own backyard. You might even figure out one of their hiding places without leaving your house..." I thought about a couple of places we have been searching that literally lead to someones yard: the FOY location I've suggested next to the HoJo, and the Sullivan's Island location that WR has proffered. Perhaps that is why we have the "get permission to dig out" line. While I don't think that the majority of locations are in somebody's yard, I can't imagine BP would have put in those lines if at least ONE location was not in a yard.

Four21thrasher, I've been thinking a lot about that as well.  I have a feeling Preiss was busted on one of his digs or he himself asked for permission and he made promise to include a note to request permission before digging.  Someone at some point may have known the location of interest, and been willing to respect the game Preiss was running. In consideration of the location where I think involves the permission request, I've learned that several people who use to be involved with the Portland Women's Forum were quite old back in 1981, many have passed away, and of the current membership, none of them recall anything to do with a guy digging a hole to bury a cube for a treasure hunt.  The president of the Forum was nice enough to ask her members at the monthly pancake house meetup.  I think time has taken it's toll on any memory that may resurface in that regard. Here's a new list of my ideas for first lines acting as dual purpose. First line dual-purpose ideas: Image 1: At stone wall's door = stuck in thought at the gates = sit on bench looking at Golden Gate Image 2: Of all the romance retold = birds repeating mating calls (drumming) = at a metal drum barrel (water cistern) Image 3: Pass two friends of octave = (Wilbur&Orville) To fly you must "take-off", to land you must "touch down" = Chicamacomico's Rec Pole (looks like a Football goal post) "Pass [for a] two [point conversion]"? Image 4: Beneath two countries = a border wall = casque found at a wall Image 5: Where M and B are set in stone = a deed of property transfer, an agreement “set in stone” = grant = casque found in Grant Park Image 6: Lane = name of 1st Governor of newly explored land, Joseph Lane, Oregon Territory (Ponce was the 1st Governor of a newly explored land, Puerto Rico 1508) = roadways are presented as lanes = near the monument to Sam Hill and Sam Lancaster for their efforts in the Good Roads Movement. Image 7: At the place where jewels abound = “great in number” = No.1 is the greatest number = St. Louis Cemetery No. 1 Image 8: Fortress north = isolation, in the cold [the north] = on the backside of Miller Hill Image 9: In the shadow = Poem by Pauline Johnson = under a shelter = roof over checkerboards Image 10: View the three stories of Mitchell = three accounts = Mitchell Bank = three things in a row, benches? Image 11: If Thucydides is = prison for exiled = incarceration = prison, an enclosed space = fenced area at the 2C? Image 12: The first chapter = Washington chapter, Daughters of the American Revolution = plaque on Robert's Rock in San Juan Island

Researched a bunch of old Field Guides the other day on topics such as birds, trees, wildflowers, and seashells.  The first thing I noticed was they were published by Chanticleer Press.  That's because the first time I saw the connection and visited the Corbett Oregon site, I learned it was originally the location of the Chanticleer Inn and I thought the "Rooster" reference was somekind of inside clue/joke since Preiss' publisher Bantam uses a rooster logo. Something I discovered that was uncanny was that later editions of the Audobon Field Guide on Birds didn't use the word "drum" when speaking about the calls of woodpeckers.  This may sound obscure, but those field guides where the real deal when it came to learning details about nature in a pre-Internet age...heck, back then dial-up and BBS was the obscure thing as I hacked my way around DECs...  Anyways, my thoughts on Verse 6 led me to a conclusion that Woodrow Wilson (President during May of 1913) could be a clue about something related to "Woody", and in this case, "stand and listen to the birds" could be "woodpeckers", connecting from the iconic cartoon character.  I've concluded that there might be a water cistern involved in locating the casque, which is basically a metal drum, and that might be the object of a percussive sound as you "hear the clear, cool sound of water" or rain drops falling on an empty metal container.  I thought, that's quite a stretch, but it wouldn't be a stretch if there existed an easy pre-Internet age reference that basically describes the woodpecker's mating call as a "drumming".  A bird enthusiast might automatically know this, but I'm not so inclined.  I did discover that the 1981 reference used the word "drum" in the descriptions of woodpecker calls.  I don't know why they no longer used the word "drum" in the future editions. Image 12, I think has a lot to do with Abalone shell, the purple-blue-green hues of silvery mother of pearl.  I found there was a whole Field Guide from 1981 dedicated to Seashells and in which contained details about abalone.  The abalone in San Juan Island area were found to be one of the largest populations in the world before the 80's.  I also recently learned the purest limestone and most massive quantity of lime west of the Mississippi came from San Juan Island from a 1972 book on the history of Roche Harbor.  The mention of limestone and shell in verse 9 works well with these facts I've found easily referenced in non-Internet sources. I know many folks have dug deep and looked at archives and older books.  I think that and a good sense of reasoning from what you're actually seeing in the images and actually reading as far as word meanings in the verses will solve these puzzles.

Had a new notion recently, if image 8 (casque is in part to do with Wilt Chamberlain, suggesting that the "whistle sound" is to do with Basketball and the reason for the deep referencing notion is in his nickname "The Big Dipper", a method for using two points to find a third, then might that translate into the possibility of finding similar such references in the other casque locations? Face it folks, there's a lot of supposition, but there's a lot more stagnation of beliefs and people are contending more with narrowmindedness and giving in to consensus or worshiping occams razor like an omnipresent oracle than allowing for real considerations.  Jsp recently put up an extremely thoughful and honest post about his vies on image 11/verse 3 as a St. Louis consideration.  It was one of the most excellent posts on this site.  It's important to lay out your considerations with respect to the puzzle as a whole.  Many posters have done that in the past and it has helped by revealing some huge gaps in theory and practice.  We constantly contend with our subjectivity and an unconfirmed view of Preiss' methodology.  Where people say something is "likely" is where people are misrepresenting the facts.  We simply don't know where Preiss stood, or what latitude in artistic interpretation from Palencar was acceptable for the purpose of the puzzle.  The words themselves of the verses are more precise than the images, imho.  Few people have gone as deep into lingual things as shecrab, forestblight, or even Hirudiniforme.  There's many approaches to consider when it comes to the words: etymological, literal, metaphorical, homographical, idiomatical, or even my occasional randomaniacal approach (verse 9...).  The difference between what is cryptic-enough and overly-cryptic is difficult to see at times.  I've recently learned to appreciate the stark literal sense of things where the only thing that makes something crytic is our own common or assuming nature, in other words, things which are hiding in plain sight.  Isn't in an eye opener to consider that the word 'friendship' may be a plain and simple unequivolcal way of suggesting the word 'steward'?  It really starts to look clearer after awhile if we abandon our stagnating or common understandings and pause for a meta based convention where Preiss' clever verse construction tells us quite plainly where and how things are hidden. I love that Wilt Chamberlain plainly has nothing to do with Houston.  I arrive at his name through a multistep process, but it's just a solution like any other, and if I see a good reason to through it out, so be it, but if it stands as a reasonable conclusion, "likely" or "unlikely", having a supportive role to the consistency, self-consistency rather, of that particular location, and leaving absolutely NO gaps in theory, then we have something to look into.  It still might be wrong, or subject to a perturbation in the environment, thus even if we are right, having no recoverability.  All I can say is, wow, Wilt + Chamberlain..., really??  What does that mean for the other locations? Even without catering to my Oregon theory, thematically image6/verse 5 gives a clear introduction, pertaining to a road, a view of a night illuminated granite structure, a windy environment, near a volcanic area, high up overlooking water area, and something to do with Spannish exploration.  Fortunate for me, every one of the points in the resulting criteria are met by the spot in Corbett.  From a reverse hypothetical approach, the Corbett spot is merely a memorial to one of the most significant contributers to road building in the nation, it's a spot along a route journaled about by Lewis and Clark, it's also a spot sharing a major, and I mean MAJOR, story in Native American legend, having to do with the Bridge of the Gods.  This isn't simply one small tribes lore, but a lore shared by the entire network of Native Americans historically, though each particular tribe tailors the story somewhat differently, because volcanic erruptions were major events.  (Bigmatty, it's okay if you want to drop in and explain how volcanic erruptions aren't major events, you're expertise at marginalizing is a major contribution to these forums).  So, apart from the details, the way in which image6/verse5 pertains to some topic or clue like image8/verse1 does with Wilt Chamberlain, I would have to say it's where "King of the Road" meets "King of the Mountain". Casque 1, San Francisco, a major component in the background is the prison in a mountain beneath a sky with many celestial bodies, and in the foreground a strong asian perspective conveying mysticism or fortune telling.  I'm like, where's that scrap of paper hiding in the middle of that cookie..."GOOD NEWS FROM AFAR WILL BRING YOU A WELCOME VISITOR".  It's hard to separate my bias at this point, but I'll try anyways, I think there's some thematic points that are designed to influence a positive outcome: the fortune cookie is the last thing that sits on the table and like a rose, beautiful to see, fragrant, but may also have thorns.  Will the scrap of paper have good news or bad news?  We sit at the table after our meal, filled full, what's next?  We ponder.  We pay.  We see what the future holds in small twisted sweet cookie.  I think something in this point of view is designed to inspire a person to perceive the Palace of the Legion of Honor as a place having to do with great fortune.  I think the bench from which we end up sitting to face the shape of crossed arms in the old tree limbs is part of the persistent theme of sitting and pondering. I'd like to put down more thoughts on the other locations, but it's time to take a break.  Maybe someone will step in and discuss some of these points in the meantime.

Found: Cleveland & Chicago Likely contenders: New Orleans, New York, San Francisco, Milwaukee, Boston, Charlestown How again does Corbett fit on a list of major cities again? It just seems...very improbable.

fox wrote:: Found: Cleveland & Chicago Likely contenders: New Orleans, New York, San Francisco, Milwaukee, Boston, Charlestown How again does Corbett fit on a list of major cities again? It just seems...very improbable. Your ignorance fits in wherever you like. The theoretical framework Ive elaborated on just takes us to a specific spot.  You seem to like really huge gaps and generalizations. Don't take this as belligerence, it's more like edgy criticism.  Major cities?  Is that what the consensus agrees on?  If that's a legitimate constraint then go for it.  St. Augustine is a hugely popular destination for tourists, which is why I have some nice collectible souvenirs from there, but I disagree that it's a major city.  Corbett is like a farmland, but that doesn't chage the FACT that historically significant elements exist. Everytime I carefully evaluate the details of what everyone has posted about FOY I still see it as a random assortment of pickings and choosings with imposings of preference.  The sign at the entrance is a great find.  It begins things.  The planetarium and the weather vane are nice associations, but the method of discovery is still a huge mystery.  Who cares where the green fence was or is.  Try imagining a green fence anywhere you want and you will still have to explain how things work in a way comparable to how precise Preiss himself expected these to be found.  Precision...maybe that's just my own imposition.  My point is nobody seems to be working towards an absolute answer.  There's a lot of guesswork being applied and tossing the words "likely" or "probable" around is often misleading.

Casque 1, maybe a better way to put it is to look at the table and notice the rose and the clock.  When you're done eating you're food (chinese), what is SWEET like the smell of a rose when it is TIME to pay?  A fortune cookie.  What location in San Francisco is most associated with "fortune".  Palace of the Legion of Honor.

team·work : work done by several associates with each doing a part but all subordinating personal prominence to the efficiency of the whole meth·od·ol·o·gy 1 : a body of methods, rules, and postulates employed by a discipline : a particular procedure or set of procedures 2 : the analysis of the principles or procedures of inquiry in a particular field This is what this hunt is all about! There is no way this thing will ever be solved if we continue on our current path. Every time I check out the forum I hope that I see a new thought or an addition to an old idea that hasn't been brought up yet so that maybe it sparks something. Instead, every single time I log on, all I see is negativity and one person shooting down another's idea. This is not directed at any single member but to the forum as a whole. Any idea, no matter how absurd people think it is, is just one persons thought about how to solve this puzzle. It doesn't make it wrong just because you disagree with it. If you don't agree then keep going on your own path and ignore it. There's no reason to write a novel about how someone's ideas are wrong. Everyone here is in the same boat and we're all adults. All the recent posts are just bashing new ideas. Instead of pushing us forward they're setting us back. I would much rather log in and see that there are no new posts as opposed to reading one that tells someone that they have the wrong idea. We have a thirty plus year treasure hunt that remains unsolved. If we keep going in the direction that we are then I might as well hand my book to my daughter in twenty years and have her search instead because there will still be ten casques to look for. Lets just work together and find these damn things. See something you don't like? JUST IGNORE IT!! Prove that person wrong by digging up the casque based on your own concept instead of writing them a post about how you're right and they're wrong. The only way to prove anyone's idea wrong is to find the casque. I don't mean to come off as a dick but this needed to be said.

"Your ignorance fits in wherever you like. The theoretical framework Ive elaborated on just takes us to a specific spot.  You seem to like really huge gaps and generalizations. Don't take this as belligerence, it's more like edgy criticism.  Major cities?  Is that what the consensus agrees on?  If that's a legitimate constraint then go for it.  St. Augustine is a hugely popular destination for tourists, which is why I have some nice collectible souvenirs from there, but I disagree that it's a major city.  Corbett is like a farmland, but that doesn't chage the FACT that historically significant elements exist. Everytime I carefully evaluate the details of what everyone has posted about FOY I still see it as a random assortment of pickings and choosings with imposings of preference.  The sign at the entrance is a great find.  It begins things.  The planetarium and the weather vane are nice associations, but the method of discovery is still a huge mystery.  Who cares where the green fence was or is.  Try imagining a green fence anywhere you want and you will still have to explain how things work in a way comparable to how precise Preiss himself expected these to be found.  Precision...maybe that's just my own imposition.  My point is nobody seems to be working towards an absolute answer.  There's a lot of guesswork being applied and tossing the words "likely" or "probable" around is often misleading." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First off....ignorance?  I would hazard a guess that many on this board would disagree with you there. Oh, but there I go again....generalizations. Secondly....Let me take my huge gap and generalization of big cities and specialize it a bit. PORT CITIES. Yes, a consensus has agreed on that as well. It only fits with a story about fairies and creatures making their way to a new land. St Augustine may not be a big city but it historically is a HUGE Port. C...... " The sign at the entrance is a great find.  It begins things.  The planetarium and the weather vane are nice associations, but the method of discovery is still a huge mystery. "  If the sign begins things, I sure would love to see how the end is thousands of miles away.  ;D 4....."Everytime I carefully evaluate the details of what everyone has posted about FOY I still see it as a random assortment of pickings and choosings with imposings of preference."    Randon assortment of pickings and choosings? Your theories have gone from Pac man to Batman to trigonometry to God knows where. Who cares where the green fence is? Really? I think we all should care where the green fence is since that is how these hunts work. I'm sure glad Sir Egg didn't say to himself who cares where the columns are......they aren't literal columns, but perhaps columns of light shining down on a specific object at a specific time of day only once a year. These puzzles aren't that complicated or hard. The only real thing making them difficult is the passage of time. Trees (literal) fall, landscaping is done, fences (literal) are torn down or painted...fortunately our green picket fence is still there. So why are we trying so hard to ignore it. Sure, coquina (on it's own) is used in construction all over the place: sure, signs (on their own) can be found everywhere with "salt" and "silver" on them: sure, the outline which looks a lot like Florida (on it's own) may resemble something a bit different: sure, a conquistador (on his own) could be a handful of explorers...not just Ponce de Leon: sure, green picket fences (on their own) are everywhere, we could all probably walk down our streets and find one etc etc etc.........But: when that explorer who looks like PdL is atop a shape that looks like Florida leads us to where PdL supposedly landed looking for the FoY which has a sign at the entrance that says FIRST CHAPTER which also has coquina buildings and signs saying salt and silver and has a green picket fence etc etc etc...then maybe all those things that are meaningless On Their Own now are quite the contrary.

Let us not also forget The Litany of the Jewels.....which I believe tied in directly to the 2 found casques. Chicago:  found in Grant Park People O' Peace et all & Leprachauns etc.... * from Scotland & Ireland *LOJ  "Brilliant as eyes of Celtic folk, Cold morning green, their Emerald." Chicago has a huge Irish population....actually,  Irish-Americans are the largest ethnic group in Chicago. The city is known for it's Irish population. P5 shows the Emerald ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Cleveland:  found in the Greek Cultural Garden Centaurs etc... *  from Hellas/Crete * LOJ  "The Nymphs of Hellas cherish sweet Aquamarine, spring-water clear." Hellas/Crete = Greece. Greek Cultural Garden. P4 shows Centaur & Aquamarine ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- on to P6: Hadas etc... *  from Iberia * LOJ  "The Hads of Iberia: Sapphire, shy as a wild field flower." Hads of Iberia.  Where is Iberia? Spain P6 shows Spanish Conquistador & Sapphire (as well as what looks like Florida which was discovered by the Spaniard Ponce de Leon at a place called St Augustine)

The LotJ does raise some interesting points but it doesnt seem all that useful.  I think Celtic = Boston is more appropriate.  Spain also explored and claimed the Pacific coast.  Ponce is just not the only Spanish explorer to consider. Ive enjoyed a liberal range of thematic explorations.  The Pacman was rocking as a theme and still has some traction.  It was creative and consistent with several factors.  The legeater is a good direct clue to image 9.  It answers a question of why Stephens lamp and why just the head eating a leg.  Although nobody is willing to embrace it, they might still opt to work with it or challenge the idea, but no, instead people fall back on the notion that Chicago and Cleveland didnt work that way which is a fail.  We are better off assessing each successive casque as a wholy new puzzle, one more challenging than the last.  We might still misunderstand some key features about Chicago and Cleveland and so its not the best evidence to use.  Its hard to move forward when we choose to limit our view...thats plain ignorance.  Its misplaced trust.

Ok, now that's the third time you've called me ignorant and that's pretty offensive. Perhaps we will just agree to disagree..........

Don't be offended.  Let's move forwards.  Narrowing views is great when it makes very reasonable excisions, but when those excisions are poorly based, it's just an ignorance of what might be important details. I agree that we're adults.

Yes, of course there are other Spanish explorers.  And some did explore the Pacific northwest....I'm not arguing with you there. Unfortunately our image has a Spanish explorer standing atop something that looks a lot like Florida...and who does that make it? PdL.  If the shape looked a lot like Oregon, then maybe it isn't PdL and maybe it is somewhere else. Getting to the Sam Hill Memorial - It sure would be a better candidate if the plaques spoke of Spanish explorers or anything in the pic for that matter....but it doesn't. One side contains a round sculpture of his bust in profile which is not seen in our pic and a plaque below reading: ---------- Not until this highway was built Was it possible to go up or down The Columbia River Gorge. Earliest period rafts and Dug outs (Native boats). Later period steamboats And railroad. Erected by loving friends To the memory of Samuel Hill. Alonzo Victor Lewis Sculptor John C Howard Designer -------- hxxp://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/or0386.photos.354662p/ The other side contains 2 plaques which show what appears to be river boats along the river. hxxp://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/or0386.photos.354661p/ Lastly, yes this area was explored by the Spanish....but it is on these plaques and in the history of this area, that Lewis & Clark are highlighted. Show me a L&C reference somewhere.....anywhere. So this rock looks a bit like the shape of the P rock but nothing else about it fits. Anywhere. Our workings on the San Augustine theory fits almost line for line.

Fox, theres a line for line fit for verse 5.  Just stand there in one spot and look around.  tue "line for line" for FOY based verse 9 is convoluted by comparison to ALL observations, Chicago and Cleveland included.  Look again at the stercox sketch.  Look at four21s labled map.  Theres a poor fit, nearly random, I can't see how the goal of orienteering is intelligently arranged. I'm not into looking up obscure things any longer.  I just dig a little, look up words and analyze the context.  I don't have an answer for why there isn't a Spain based historical plaque.  It would help for sure but this might be the hardest of Preiss' puzzles.  Especially given its the only one that seems strictly like a red herring setup.

erexere wrote:: Casque 1, maybe a better way to put it is to look at the table and notice the rose and the clock.  When you're done eating you're food (chinese), what is SWEET like the smell of a rose when it is TIME to pay?  A fortune cookie.  What location in San Francisco is most associated with "fortune".  Palace of the Legion of Honor. I'm just curious why you would think the Palace of the legion of honor has any association with fortune? To answer your question What location in San Francisco is most associated with Fortune? That would actually be the japanese tea garden in Golden Gate park. This is the location the fortune cookie (actually a japanese treat) was introduced to the United states (about the 15-20 years before the San Francisco earthquake, if my SF history knowledge is accurate) and of course the second runner up would be benkyodo (not sure I have the spelling right)  bakery in SF (Japan town) where they made the cookies.

I haven't researched the topc of fortune cookies.  I was just remembering my childhood whennId get a fortune cookie at the Chinese restaurant. The Palace of the Legion of Honr represents a fortune purely n the monetary sense.  Its an open minded shift but still relevant because its based on findi ng a particular view on that which symbolizes purity related to mercury and silver, "gold".  You see the Goldengate Bridge from the bench I've located.  Are you aware of the use of quicksilver in gold finding? E: Well well, you're historical knowledge is right on the money.  The Chinese nabbed up and rebranded that Japanese cracker, filling those clam shaped num nums with their pearls of wisdom!  (Preiss was clever!) You're point on the Tea Garden is a good option, but only if the fortune cookie idea is designed to push the cultural reference that far.  Instead, I think the Japanese/Chinese culture reference serves it's purpose as flavor to the Palace/Terminus/Flagpole/Golf Course/Bench/Golden Gate/Alcatraz setting, all set along a roughly 45 degree line traveling from SW to NE on the map.

yes, I live in the mother-lode - gold mines all around here, and mercury wasn't used in gold finding but in refining BTW the golden gate is visible from most places at the palace, more-so in 1980 when the trees were much shorter. the palace of the legion of honor is actually more associated with sugar than fortune.

Getting close to a very comfortable sense for how these puzzles work: 1. Let the Litany of the Jewels guide you in a helpful direction when considering an image and verse pair. 2. Consider the broadest or biggest clues that bring you to a city of consideration. 3. Image: Look for cultural theme in the image.  Take notice of the "action".  For example I noticed the mask in image 7 isn't being worn, its being held up high, does that mean its coming off at midnight because a specific celebration has ended?  I thought it could be a clue about Halloween.  The image 4 centaur is on top of the wall-arch. The visual pieces are being organized for a thematic purpose. 4. Verse: the first line is immensely helpful in two ways, a general application comes first, but later, once the last line is resolved, the first line serves to confirm our conclusions.  Its fascinating and fun.  Elegant. 5. Verse: work from general to specific.  There will be some points that are well described for the purpose of getting the searcher in an approximate position.  The last few lines seem like inocuous fluff, really they are cryptic yet extremely specific.  There is no guessing.  Preiss chooses very precise words.

erexere wrote:: Take notice of the "action".  For example I noticed the mask in image 7 isn't being worn, its being held up high, does that mean its coming off at midnight because a specific celebration has ended?  I thought it could be a clue about Halloween. What? It is random thought after random thought like this in all of your theories that makes me scratch my head. First, how does a mask being held up lead you to coming off at midnight? Using your reasoning, isn't it just as plausible that the mask is going on? Which would lead us to dawn and a specific celebration is beginning? Can't it just be a mask on a stick which ties in with everything else leading to New Orleans? Why does every piece of every image as well as every word in every verse have to have some mystical meaning to you? I just don't get it. There was nothing mystical about the 2 casques that have been found.

Its not random.  The clock says midnight plus about 14 seconds.  If the mask was in the process of being put on then its 14 seconds late.  You should stop scratching your head. Halloween IS a holiday when masks are worn.  That's not a random holiday nor a random event.  Most people have taken notice that the holiday happens on the same 31st day of October every year and without fail, kids wearing costumes knock at your door.  When Halloween is over, masks come off.  Why do you find this such a mystical process? Masks are also worn for Mardi Gras.  I think its just a matter of avoiding assumptions that will help us through these puzzles.  Cleveland and Chicago have much in them that isn't completely understood.  I don't think we should oversimply them just yet.

erexere wrote:: Cleveland and Chicago have much in them that isn't completely understood.  I don't think we should oversimply them just yet. And yet… the simple solutions and explanations are what actually led to actual casques being actually dug up. But whatever?

Well, it wasn't easy for anyone involved to find those casques.  Getting close enough to find a casque without engineering an exact solve is all that we have.  Confirmation from the author in the form of a walkthrough, line by line, image element by image element has NEVER occurred.

Let me rephrase: The simple approach is what worked for the two groups that found that two casques. If there's some deeper, more complex "real" solution that underlies the only two actual solutions that produced actual casques — casques that were found using simple interpretations — then it doesn't even make a difference, now, does it?

erexere wrote:: Getting close to a very comfortable sense for how these puzzles work: 1. Let the Litany of the Jewels guide you in a helpful direction when considering an image and verse pair. 2. Consider the broadest or biggest clues that bring you to a city of consideration. 3. Image: Look for cultural theme in the image.  Take notice of the "action".  For example I noticed the mask in image 7 isn't being worn, its being held up high, does that mean its coming off at midnight because a specific celebration has ended?  I thought it could be a clue about Halloween.  The image 4 centaur is on top of the wall-arch. The visual pieces are being organized for a thematic purpose. 4. Verse: the first line is immensely helpful in two ways, a general application comes first, but later, once the last line is resolved, the first line serves to confirm our conclusions.  Its fascinating and fun.  Elegant. 5. Verse: work from general to specific.  There will be some points that are well described for the purpose of getting the searcher in an approximate position.  The last few lines seem like inocuous fluff, really they are cryptic yet extremely specific.  There is no guessing.  Preiss chooses very precise words. Seriously folks, this is a structured method, maybe it can be improved upon, please do.  If you must resort to calling a prepared approach "force fitting," then you have failed to think critically.

erexere wrote:: Seriously folks, this is a structured method, maybe it can be improved upon, please do.  If you must resort to calling a prepared approach "force fitting," then you have failed to think critically. Yeah… no. That's false. What you're doing is the definition of force fitting. It's not name-calling; it is your methodology.

bigmattyh wrote:: Yeah… no. That's false. What you're doing is the definition of force fitting. It's not name-calling; it is your methodology. Wrong.  What I'm doing is presenting one of my findings, of which there are many alternate possibilities, because its part of the relationship of starting with a clean slate,  brainstorming, and then shooting down ideas with critical reasoning.  If the dictionary didn't support my conclusion I wouldn't present it. Whether my San Juan Island theory works or not should be subject to a critical process.  That should be where your our level of conversation is concerned.  You don't seem to understand that.

erexere wrote:: Whether my San Juan Island theory works or not should be subject to a critical process.  That should be where your our level of conversation is concerned.  You don't seem to understand that. The problem, Eric, is that you don't ever engage on the question of whether a set of clues is better or worse than any other. Critical thinking is about value judgments, but your "clues" all seem equally valid. We can't dig four feet down on every patch of soil on this continent. So it's reasonable to focus on what's most likely and make value judgments that determine the real clues from the chaff. But — case in point — you treat SELOY as somehow less valid than your anagram for Selby and troop movements to San Juan Island, and a tortured interpretation of "near men with windrose" to "a conflict escalation having to do with pigs" = "Pig War". Sorry, man, but… no. There is not one shred of evidence that this hunt was constructed with anything like that level of complexity or convolution. You want there to be a casque in the Pacific Northwest so badly , that this logic actually makes sense. But whatever. You don't want to engage on that level, for whatever reason. You never make any case for why your "complex" theory makes more sense than the simple theory that actually led to two actual casques. I guess it's enough for you to do your research and have fun with the hunt, which, that's perfectly fine. But, seriously, if you want to actually convince anyone else here of your theories — which you obviously seem to want to do, because you keep posting — you've got to start working on this angle of why your underlying complexity makes more sense than the only actual proven alternative.

B. Why are you nt taking this as an opportunity to engage the specifics that I've provided?  Your words are absent the specifics that help the discussion and only serve to color your negative opinion of my process. I have not claimed my San Juan theory itself is more valid.  What I've done is explained with specifics what I think makes San Juan as valid.  I'm not dismissing FOY at all.  I'm very interested in what makes it valid as well.  Then we may look at this with even more criticality.  One specific I've engaged on is the entire acrostic of 15 letters as a message verses selecting just the last 5.  The issue of involving a level of anagramming is a huge consideration.  We might dismiss it on that basis alone, or we can look at whether or not adjusting four lines is doable. The C&C factor of always using what we know about the found casques as a litmus test is problematic.  Yes, it makes sense to use what we've learned, but are we comfortable saying we KNOW C&C 100% just because the casques were recovered?  I think there are may be a side to this hunt that deserves investigation.  Are you willing to discuss that topic or are you just going to settle and close the book? I'm not trying to make a bad idea fit.  I'm trying to contest my ideas and probe where they have opportunity to fit or be ruled out.  That will be dependent on my strategy as recerencing a more developed approach.

I can picture Erexere sitting in his den with books, maps, thesauruses (thesauri?), and millions of pieces of paper piled up around him, while he types his convoluted theories in earnest, and then bigmattyh in his neat living room throwing pencils at his laptop after reading another entry by Erexere. I don't know if I should get more popcorn, or continue to bang my head against a wall after reading another Erexere post. Maybe I'll do both.

erexere wrote:: I'm trying to contest my ideas and probe where they have opportunity to fit or be ruled out.  That will be dependent on my strategy as recerencing a more developed approach. I think this is what I was trying to get at in my poem to you, E. You have an idea, a methodology and a strategy that is uniquely yours. The forum has another idea, methodology and strategy, but it is communal. We each tinker with the communal idea and methodology a bit, but mostly we all stay within its bounds and play the same game (and we do so willingly... we do not feel confined). When you came along, you brought a different set of rules and seem to be playing a different game. You keep trying to get us to start playing by your rules, but we see that as playing a completely different game. We are satisfied with the game we are playing and quite happy with the rules we've developed. You can understand how it would be irritating to have someone playing shuffleboard in the middle of your basketball game, no?

Egbert wrote:: I don't know if I should get more popcorn, or continue to bang my head against a wall after reading another Erexere post. I choose popcorn. I check back daily hoping that you or johann or ravel07 will drop another bomb. It's been 7 years but I still get goosebumps every time I see this:

What if we give Eric his own thread? He can post volumes there if he chooses. It just seems that the last 4 or 5 pages of most threads is starting to become Eric and others debating things that we already accept like the FOY location.

I think Erexere did start his own thread, and fittingly called it "Dogpile Discussions."

erexere wrote:: Masks are also worn for Mardi Gras.  I think its just a matter of avoiding assumptions that will help us through these puzzles.  Cleveland and Chicago have much in them that isn't completely understood.  I don't think we should oversimply them just yet. Let's see, who else wears masks: robbers, surgeons, baseball catchers, raccoons, Walter White & Jesse Pinkman, hockey goalies, half the population of China, firefighters, jet pilots, scuba divers, riot police, gas masks, actors, and yes kids on Halloween. But what about the plain and simple (not Amelia Earhart) explanation of the Mardi Gras mask which isn't standing alone but is being supported by many other confirmers in the pic? The clock can just as easily represent 14 seconds after noon. This is forcing. Pick one object out of any picture and I can force a fit to my home town of Albuquerque.

fox, you've tailored and misconstrued the case to sound right. Lots of information goes into solving these puzzles.  In the end, holding a casque will mean you had to decide where the information means.  You can't dodge the metafocus of anything being force fit if you're set on ignoring or being selective.  My approach stems from the LotJ, and the reference to Midsummers Day as a hint to consider "holidays".  Not to make you sound wrong, but I'm pointing out my effort to stay on course within a structure that's clear in it's presentation.  I admit jumping to the conclusion of Halloween only because I haven't thought of wearing a mask on any other of the typical holidays. I understand you could say it's 12:00:14 in the afternoon, but then you'd have to explain why the clock is broken, since it's showing the moon and stars.  I don't live in Albuquerque, so I wasn't aware that the moon and stars are considered afternoonish events.

I forgot about the moon and stars. Thanks for you're attempt at belittling me with the comment about night skies in Abq at noon. Perhaps we should turn our focus to Anchorage since many afternoon skies are dark AND they wear ski masks to protect themselves from harsh winters? After all, you can clearly see the head of a sled dog in the checkerboard pattern and the Alaskan flag looks eerily similar to the stars on the clock.

Sorry for the jab, but it's more a point of looking at the whole picture.  Does it generate a thematically useful construction?  I know there hasn't been much discussion or support about that for Cleveland or Chicago, but that shouldn't be justification for abandoning one particular investigative direction.  The portrayal of time may have something to do with more than just finding an actual clock.  The mask being removed may be a clever way to suggest All Saints Day.  I find that as an interesting counter to the mention of Midsummers Day, although I don't think the LotJ capitalizes it (does it just say "rare as a blue midsummers day"?). So maybe I'm off on this theory and it means nothing.  Still, it's interesting to ask some questions and see if they work in the same possible direction along with all the remaining pieces of the puzzle.  If it doesn't jive, then it's not part of the hive.

Remember, these hunts always say can be solved by a child. It is a Mardi Gras style mask held up by a hand in a purple sleeve (main Mardi Gras color). If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck.... Still waiting for my challenge of an object in a pic.

object in a pic?  sorry, I have very little on that front.  Legeater in montreal still takes the cake.  There's a major shortage of finding exact visual confirmers.  I think many good things fit the San Francisco image.  I also like the Vancouver BC Gateway to the Northwest Passage sculpture that resembles the square outline around legeater.

My challenge was that you could give me any random object from any of the 12 pictures and I could directly tie it to Albuquerque by force fitting.

Ah, I reject the challenge, but I'm interested in anything that you think fits as long as you provide some details on you're process.  I think the goal of looking for how a puzzle works with all of it's pieces is what's important.  Just choosing a piece of a fantasy illustration rendered from multiple pieces of visual information at a casque site and then showing how much you can fit it to you're own back yard isn't really compelling. I'm more interested in the Litany of the Jewels since you helped bring it to my attention.  I think it's a real kick in the right direction for any of these solves.  Let's think about what hints might be contained in each.  Right off, there's a cultural reference, but then there's a little something more.  That Midsummer's Day idea really fascinates me.  The celebration of a Solstice day which also is known as Saint Johns Day fits some of my thoughts on the 21st day of the month.  Could even be that "in the middle of 21" means "Noon on a solstice". I think there could be a little more discussion about the content specific to the images and the verses rather than ubiquitous champing on my outside-the-box style.

erexere wrote:: Ah, I reject the challenge, but I'm interested in anything that you think fits as long as you provide some details on you're process.  I think the goal of looking for how a puzzle works with all of it's pieces is what's important.  Just choosing a piece of a fantasy illustration rendered from multiple pieces of visual information at a casque site and then showing how much you can fit it to you're own back yard isn't really compelling. I have nothing further your honor.

fox wrote:: I have nothing further your honor.

I posed a question in a specific thread, but it deserves its own place in the meta philosophical discussion: Consider what kind of evidence is sufficient for your own satisfaction (short of finding the casque itself) that a particular solution is correct.  If the treasure is gone, if no evidence of it remains, what will you accept as "good enough" to stop looking elsewhere? In other words, is it reasonable to accept that a particular solution can never be proven (or disproven)?  That's not the same thing as giving up, is it?

That's a great question, Catherwood.  For me, even if I think I/we have "solved" an Image/Verse puzzle, I think I would still get a kick out of visiting each of the sites to see possible clue confirmers, and explaining it to whomever I am with, hopefully with book in hand.  I would probably give up the idea of trying to dig, but I do not think that I would ever stop talking about it on these bulletin boards.

Egbert wrote:: That's a great question, Catherwood.  For me, even if I think I/we have "solved" an Image/Verse puzzle, I think I would still get a kick out of visiting each of the sites to see possible clue confirmers, and explaining it to whomever I am with, hopefully with book in hand.  I would probably give up the idea of trying to dig, but I do not think that I would ever stop talking about it on these bulletin boards. 30 years in the ground will have worn these boxes out, but I think there will be something left. Depending on climate and humidity some may be intact and others just pieces but I think we at least should find the plexiglass box.

Never Give up! Never Surrender!

MF, what if you thought that you had the solution, but you knew that for whatever reason, you could never dig it up (washed away, destroyed, buried under concrete, etc.).  Wouldn't you want to know, at that point, if you were correct?  What more could be gained by waiting?

The premise is faulty, how can you be sure if you never have dug it up. All you can know is its hasn't been where I looked. If someone acquires the answers, at that point I stop caring, because there is nothing that to keep them from deciding to announce the answers. I don't believe they should. What if it turns out you were super close to solving a puzzle and at that point somebody declares it "over" and publishes the answers. What if the week before you went to cleveland, BP had declared the hunt over and published all the solutions. The only thing I would accept would be if someone did it exactly like BP did it.  That is to say, basically no help at all.

Unknown: _ I have found a treasure casque.  I enclose the key. _ I think I have found a treasure site, but the treasure is missing. _ I have determined the site of a treasure, but I am unable to explore it. I just opened my book to page 220, with the claim form.  Here are three possible ways to request confirmation: So. If you have dug and come up empty, why not go for option two?  Request confirmation that you were in the correct spot, but circumstances have taken the treasure out of play. In the spirit of the hunt, we are not asking for the solution to be handed to us, but looking for a alternative method of submitting this form to someone who might be able to respond.

ask who? my point is I wouldn't trust anybody else with BP's treasure hunt. As Kit Williams' Masquerade demonstrated, you basically can't trust anyone.  see the section at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masquerade_(book ) under Scandal If the answers were out there someone would cheat. The reason this Hunt has gone on for this long is the only answers are finding a casque. How much fun have you had with it. who are you to deny the next group of hunters to come along the fun and  possibility of finding a casque (or what remains of one) If you get "close enough" but don't really solve it and demand the answer - you are taking away from the person who might have actually solved it. And really if you haven't gone out and dug holes in the ground, you really haven't been trying to solve this hunt. The only way for a secret keeper to actually know if a hunt is impossible would be to physically go to every site, dig up the site and see if it's still there. Anyways it's possibly moot, as JJP said He wouldn't ever say anything. and BP's Wife indicated the solutions were not found after BP's death and she was not interested in looking into it anymore than that.

ask who? my point is I wouldn't trust anybody else with BP's treasure hunt. As Kit Williams' Masquerade demonstrated, you basically can't trust anyone.  see the section at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masquerade_(book ) under Scandal If the answers were out there someone would cheat. The reason this Hunt has gone on for this long is the only answers are finding a casque. How much fun have you had with it. who are you to deny the next group of hunters to come along the fun and  possibility of finding a casque (or what remains of one) If you get "close enough" but don't really solve it and demand the answer - you are taking away from the person who might have actually solved it. And really if you haven't gone out and dug holes in the ground, you really haven't been trying to solve this hunt. The only way for a secret keeper to actually know if a hunt is impossible would be to physically go to every site, dig up the site and see if it's still there. Anyways it's possibly moot, as JJP said He wouldn't ever say anything. and BP's Wife indicated the solutions were not found after BP's death and she was not interested in looking into it anymore than that.

Also, remember that the finders of the original casque in Chicago still needed BP's help to find it, less than two years after the hunt started. We're now going on 32 years later. The Cleveland casque is probably the last that will ever be dug up, because it was up in an out-of-the-way stone box, where it couldn't be washed away.

maltedfalcon wrote:: The reason this Hunt has gone on for this long is the only answers are finding a casque. How much fun have you had with it. who are you to deny the next group of hunters to come along the fun and  possibility of finding a casque (or what remains of one) If you get "close enough" but don't really solve it and demand the answer - you are taking away from the person who might have actually solved it. Hmmm.  I see your point.  I forgot what I once said - looking for the treasure is just as much fun as finding it.

I find the idea of asking JJP for anything like a clue is a horrible idea. So what if it takes another 30 years? So what if some of them are beyond recovery? Eventually we'll find more casques. The feeling of victory will be the sweeter for the wait. As far as I'm concerned, the rules of the game are still in force, since BP never changed them. The rules never said anything about asking the artist for hints. Getting hints or locations now would ruin the fun for everybody, forever. The only thing I would be on board with is prevailing upon JJP to record what he remembers -- locations, instructions, city names, photos, offhand comments from BP... whatever. And storing them somewhere amid his belongings with instructions to preserve (but not release) the information. But I adamantly would not want to see them. I'd just like to know that somewhere, the knowledge exists. My $.02.

forest_blight wrote:: I find the idea of asking JJP for anything like a clue is a horrible idea. So what if it takes another 30 years? So what if some of them are beyond recovery? Eventually we'll find more casques. The feeling of victory will be the sweeter for the wait. As far as I'm concerned, the rules of the game are still in force, since BP never changed them. The rules never said anything about asking the artist for hints. Getting hints or locations now would ruin the fun for everybody, forever. The only thing I would be on board with is prevailing upon JJP to record what he remembers -- locations, instructions, city names, photos, offhand comments from BP... whatever. And storing them somewhere amid his belongings with instructions to preserve (but not release) the information. But I adamantly would not want to see them. I'd just like to know that somewhere, the knowledge exists. My $.02.

bigmattyh wrote:: Also, remember that the finders of the original casque in Chicago still needed BP's help to find it, less than two years after the hunt started. That is true, however that was BPs decision to stretch the rules, and he did it to generate interest in the book. His hunt, his rules, and before he died he made it clear. let it go on. and the only way to know if you were correct was to find a casque.

I'm not quite sure where I stand on this dilemma. On the one hand, I must concur with maltedfalcon. The hunt must go on. We will prevail again. I like to think that I played a big part in the Cleveland casque being found by Sir Egg since I got the group together for this elusive adventure. hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=99.0 . I really believe as a group we can succeed. On the other hand, there have been some very convincing arguments for looking for help. Not exact directions to all unfound casques, just perhaps a little nudge in the right direction. I have said over and over again that the only thing keeping us from unearthing these casques is the passage of time. So much has changed. Have we dug in the exact spot only to come up empty handed? No one knows. I am convinced we are close...very close to several of these casques but is Mother Nature now against us? Argh.....

fox wrote:: I'm not quite sure where I stand on this dilemma. On the one hand, I must concur with maltedfalcon. The hunt must go on. We will prevail again. I like to think that I played a big part in the Cleveland casque being found by Sir Egg since I got the group together for this elusive adventure. hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=99.0 . I really believe as a group  :group) we can succeed. forest_blight wrote:: I find the idea of asking JJP for anything like a clue is a horrible idea. So what if it takes another 30 years? So what if some of them are beyond recovery? Eventually we'll find more casques. The feeling of victory will be the sweeter for the wait. As far as I'm concerned, the rules of the game are still in force, since BP never changed them. The rules never said anything about asking the artist for hints. Getting hints or locations now would ruin the fun for everybody, forever. The only thing I would be on board with is prevailing upon JJP to record what he remembers -- locations, instructions, city names, photos, offhand comments from BP... whatever. And storing them somewhere amid his belongings with instructions to preserve (but not release) the information. But I adamantly would not want to see them. I'd just like to know that somewhere, the knowledge exists. My $.02. Thanks, Fox, for that thread link.  That made me smile.  It was like watching the "pilot" episode of a wonderful TV show. Well, FB, I also was thinking that JJP should write down his knowledge somewhere.  However, if he does do that, then when he dies, the solutions will be revealed in all likelihood, and the hunt will be over.  Maybe we do not want that to happen.  This is a very difficult dilemma.  Let's assume this hunt goes on for decades more if we do not get the answers from somewhere.  JJP is not a young man.  He may not last another 40 years.  So, if he does not write his knowledge down, it will be lost forever, and we are basically the only group that could prevent that from happening. I have been thinking about this a lot.  Perhaps, not now, but maybe 20 years from now, we will have better technology than "ground penetrating radar," that will allow us to "see" what is under the ground clearly, even if the "site confirmers" are no longer there.  So, perhaps with the passage of time, our ability to find the casques will actually increase. Okay, I am "changing my vote."  I do not want to ask JJP to do anything.

I believe most, if not all, of the remaining 10 casques are irretrievable, for one reason or another. So many of the natural landmarks — i.e., trees, etc. — are just plain gone. Other sites — i.e., the Houston Children's Zoo, maybe even Copley Square — have been significantly redeveloped. Who even knows what damage Katrina did. Either the casques themselves are gone, or the clues and confirmers leading to them are gone. And there's just no way to find them now. Maybe the "solutions" that have been come up with here are way off. But I don't think they are. I keep bringing up that even the Chicago casque required BP's help to be found — and this was less than 2 years after the hunt began. Egbert's casque may really have been the last to be found. If you think of the location of it, it was set up, off from the ground, in a large planter that was out of the way. It's unlikely that the rest are going to be that lucky. The way I see it, the "fun" at this point would be in figuring out if any of the solutions were correct, and then moving on to another hunt.

Unknown: If you think of the location of it, it was set up, off from the ground, in a large planter that was out of the way. I think he buried the casques in locations where he could not be interrupted. For example at FOY there is a place in the corner of the car park on the outside of the fence behind bushes.

FB i like that idea, JJP lives about 40mile from me,i ran into him at a art show, at the college about 5yr ago, and it took all i had, not to talk about the hunt, yes i was a little afraid i would say something and he would confirm, thats when i knew i dont want it like that, but for posterity, it would be nice if he would keep his notes/work on the book, and maybe the next gen could look at the notes on the 50th anniversary in 2031, but i fear by that time, a lot more change will have happenned, and the next gen prob wont fig it out even with notes. ill be about 80 on the hunts 50th,id like to see another dug up b4 then. like i said b4,the clev casque, i never got it and im familar with those gardens and the TT downtown, i think i worked on it for about 4yr b4 my book got packed in aunts attic and not found until just a few yrs ago, hell i just found it again it was misplaced when i did some work painting ect. in the home office a few months ago. maybe we could write him and see if he knows folks are still on the hunt and see what he thinks about notes for posterity

bigmattyh wrote:: The way I see it, the "fun" at this point would be in figuring out if any of the solutions were correct, and then moving on to another hunt. Well I'm sorry you're done, but I'm not, nor am I so pessimistic that we wont find more casques. I submit to you that none of the m were correct because we didnt find the casques yet.

maltedfalcon wrote:: I submit to you that none of the m were correct because we didnt find the casques yet. I don't think that's fair at all. Take the Children's Zoo for example. There is every indication that the casque was there, but it's gone now. The "center of four alike" and "three-winged, split and slight" probably refers to some marker that was moved or removed since the casque was buried, leaving it impossible to find. Wilhouse put so much effort into that dig — even pulling out the GPR, if I recall correctly — and it's just a write-off now, as the site has been completely renovated. If a casque is gone — or its markers are gone, leaving it impossible to find — and a solution would have otherwise been correct, what would you prefer to do? Keep trying other solutions? I'd rather see where the casque was , so I can appreciate what BP was thinking when he wrote the puzzle. That's where the excitement is for me now. I don't think many more of those "aha" moments are likely to come without help, though, unfortunately.

Wow so many good points. May I suggest we take a vote? Perhaps the best way to move forward is as a group and if the group feels we should not ask JJP then we should all agree to not pursue it. Also, can I get some feed back on my [url=hxxp://"hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/hxxp://test.quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?p=126469#p126469"]"memorial for the secret idea"[/url] especially from the older members? We may want to hold off until at least one more is found or maybe wait for more time to go by.

Reguardless of fair. Both BPs wife and JJP have said they are not interested in being contacted about the hunt. So who are you going to ask for clues? or do you feel its ok to go ahead and bother them again because we haven't made progress lately.

I'm not against hints on principle, but I'm against contacting BP's relatives, I don't believe there's any point in contacting JJP, and I can't think of a better memorial than the book and the ongoing quest for the casques. I doubt we'll find another, though I wouldn't say it's impossible.

I agree that there are still locations out there, where we have not yet figured out if the landmarks have been moved.  We have no idea where the Canadian treasure is hidden - Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto?  We also have not narrowed down or ruled out St. Louis, New York, Boston, Salt Lake City, or Portland (just kidding on that last one - sorry Erexere - but I guess anything is possible).

Something that isn't often discussed is the use of enjambment in the verses.  The sense that two lines go together or stand apart is often very interesting.

Just some random thoughts... Let's assume the order in which the images and verses appear in the book is arbitrary. If so, there is no logic to the numerical ordering of their pairing. That is, no numeric rule that dictates what painting number goes with what verse number. The pairings rely entirely on their content. Can we agree on that? Regarding the month theme, in every image we have a significant number of some sort (communicated via clocks, a carving, warts, flowers, columns, a roman numeral, red balls, and gold bands) corresponding to the month, the birth flower for that month, and the birthstone for that month. Why? What is the connection between this theme and the immigration theme? How does this fact tie into the solution? And why the redundancy? The jewels I can understand, but once we recognize that they are all 12 birthstones, why do we need to know the birthflower and month also? I recognize that the elements of the images take on bit parts in individual solutions, but I'm talking about the overall decision to include all three of these elements in every picture when they would seem to provide redundant information. It would have all made sense if they gave some clue to how to pair a P and V, but they don't. Some of the verses themselves give instructions on pairings. Here are some direct references to paintings in the verses (the ones I know of): V4: "Seek the columns / For the search" V10: "Take twice as many east steps as the hour" V11: "To the land near the window" I wonder if we have missed any other clues in the verses that would point toward specific pairings. Also, here is a listing of the flowers and what I think we have been able to glean from them. Note that JJP used the U.S. style birth flowers, not the British list: Rose (June, pearl). Is there a clue hidden in the image? Daisy (April, diamond). Any significance / pattern in the petals? White carnation (January, garnet). Daffodil (March, aquamarine). Does this look like a daffodil to anyone? C'mon, really?? Lily of the Valley (May, emerald). Aster (September, sapphire). It has been suggested that the greenery hides a Spanish ship. Also, the number of flowers (9) is the number clue for this image. Narcissus (December, turquoise). There are two of them. Larkspur (July, ruby). There are two of them - in case we missed one? Calendula/Marigold (October, opal). Hides a number (unintelligible). Primrose (February, amethyst). Gladiolus (August, peridot). Chrysanthemum (November, topaz). Might hide letters.

forest_blight wrote:: Lily of the Valley (May, emerald). Note how this ties in with the Celtic folk via the litany... Brilliant as eyes of Celtic folk, Cold morning green, their Emerald ...and the story. "Imagine the Leprechauns of Erin...as from their hiding places they watched the Mayflower drop anchor, and saw upon its deck a grim-faced throng of Celt-murdering Puritans." I think a lot of this stuff is fluff; bewildering ornamentation, with clues but also distractions.

What about the Zodiac symbols hidden in each image? hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 254#p73254 They also give you earth air fire water and cardinal fixed mutable I suppose it confirms the months but I cannot see any connection with the locations.

I don't buy the zodiac theory -- too big a stretch.

FB, I totally agree. I posed the same question a while back... What is the reason for all the birth month related themes? There has to be a connection somewhere. Why go through all the trouble to use them in the images? The fact that there's 12 months and 12 puzzles has to factor in somehow. Not just to link a jewel to an image.

maybe BP planted one a month for a year and wanted to memorialize it somehow.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: maybe BP planted one a month for a year and wanted to memorialize it somehow. i think we talked about that way back, april march here and so near the lake,with what is called lake effect, wind or snow,and wind and snow, u would be digging big chunks of partially frozen dirt, and once dug it would have to be broken up, to fit back in hole with a box, not impossible but i would think an hour-hour 1/2 work for a 3ft X 2ft hole, i always thought the book prob took at least 2yr for the bury and imgs to publish date, because of all the digging and finding parks  ect. Verse 4 SOLVED - Cleveland, Cleveland Cultural Garden Matches Image 4 sorry i typed april,and should be march

forest_blight wrote:: Just some random thoughts... Regarding the month theme, in every image we have a significant number of some sort (communicated via clocks, a carving, warts, flowers, columns, a roman numeral, red balls, and gold bands) corresponding to the month, the birth flower for that month, and the birthstone for that month. Why? What is the connection between this theme and the immigration theme? How does this fact tie into the solution? And why the redundancy? The jewels I can understand, but once we recognize that they are all 12 birthstones, why do we need to know the birthflower and month also? Well, we know from the Littany of the Jewels, which fairy is connected to each jewel.  Since some jewels look alike (for example, a topaz could be different colors, and we have had a difficult time figuring out which jewel is in each Image), I think there needs to either be a birth month or a birth flower to signify to us exactly which jewel is in each Image.  Once we know the jewel, we then know the fairy, and the fairy leads us to a location (through the other part of the book).  I do not see a need for BOTH the birth flower and the birth month, but I do see a need for at least one of them. My take on it:  I think BP thought that putting in the birth flower, or hiding a number in the Images to signify the month, would still not make it "easy" to solve, since numbers can be hidden well, and not many people know different types of flowers.  Image 4 had, in my opinion, an unrecognizable flower, and the number 3 almost impossibly hidden in the form of a triangle on a sphere.  The only way I could tell it was the 3rd month, was the aquamarine in the Image.  So, sorry, I just think it is "stylistic decoration" to put them all in each Image, and BP was not thinking of redundancy. One additional note to make us think even more about this "redundancy," and whether it has any significance:  The underside of the top of each casque has a clock painted on it, with a certain time.  The Cleveland casque is too broken to put it together, but I believe the Chicago casque had 5 o'clock, which signifies the 5th month, etc.  So, that is even a further redundancy - time on a clock.  Why would it be painted on the casque?  I have no answer, other than "stylistic decoration."

Egbert, a couple questions if you would be so kind.. In your meeting with Preiss, did he give you any indication that there was a way to link verse to painting? Did he mention or hint as to who might he have given the answers to?

No, he would not talk about how to solve the clues at all.  I believe I outlined everything I could remember in the Cleveland thread.  He mailed photos and other things to JJP, but he did not necessarily tell JJP what they were photos from.  I am thinking, though, that JJP had to know each treasure's general hiding place - such as the city - since there is a map in basically every Image.

Egbert did you fig out Euclid's triangle, was  Euclid ave

Yes, so it served as a double clue.  The only clue that I did not know, which was revealed after the treasure was found, was the State of Ohio hidden on the left side of the image.  JJP also mentioned that "there was something about the centaur's helmet," but no one has ever said what that was.

maltedfalcon wrote:: I dont believe that this actually works Seek the columns would work if only one image had columns, that is not the case. Take twice as many steps east as the hour, the majority of images have clocks... To the land near the window - many images have windows. And Image 7...  the mask covers 6 - 9  specically not the after noon hours.. espicially if the clock is showing midnight as is commonly assumed but either way it covers either morning or evening. but not afternoon. So while some of these images suggest, none of them actually help you select a verse... I'm afraid I disagree, malt. In each case, BP gives a pretty strong hint without directing you unambiguously to the correct image. In any case, a reference to an image in a verse need not be for the purpose of establishing a pairing, but could also be a way to give a clue that can only be understood once the pairing has been made. 1. For "seek the columns," there are really only two good candidate images he could be talking about, so that's actually a really good hint for finding a P/V pairing. It eliminates 10 images for that verse. 2. For the "east steps," I realize that many images have clocks. One must first pair the verse with the relevant image to make any use of this clue, but it is definitely a reference to a specific image (i.e., when you have identified the correct image for this verse, figure out the relevant hour, multiply it by two, and start walking). 3. For the "land near the window," the land in question is clearly the outline of Roanoke, which is literally "near the window" in P3. Of the windows in other verses, none of them have "lands" near them, at least not quite so blatantly. So this is a clue for pairing an image with a verse.

forest_blight wrote:: 3. For the "land near the window," the land in question is clearly the outline of Roanoke, which is literally "near the window" in P3. Of the windows in other verses, none of them have "lands" near them, at least not quite so blatantly. So this is a clue for pairing an image with a verse. Is the "window" in the image not just a painting then, but an exact match of a real window?

Could be, but I doubt it. No need to overthink this -- In P3, Roanoke is literally the land the near the window.

I abandoned the Roanoke near the window idea while trying an alternate perspective.  Now I'm feeling inclined to think thats the correct intention after all, only I'm considering the notion further in the sense that the "land" is meant to be understood as "island" or specifically a "zone".

forest_blight wrote:: 7 I'm afraid I disagree, malt. In each case, BP gives a pretty strong hint without directing you unambiguously to the correct image. In any case, a reference to an image in a verse need not be for the purpose of establishing a pairing, but could also be a way to give a clue that can only be understood once the pairing has been made. Well I totally agree that those definitely are hints, but I think they are like you said and can only be understood once the pairing has been made. So far I haven't seen anything better than the image /Picture 'Count' association. unless anybody can point out somehow that it really doesn't work.  It looks to me to be the methodology that BP meant for us to use to unequivocally  associate the picture with the verse, The only thing that remains is why a couple go clockwise and the rest go counter-clockwise. This is actually sad for me, I was hoping that it would indicate a verse besides verse 7 with SF, because then the SF casque might still be retrievable. since it indicates Image 1 / verse 7 its another nail in the, SF casque is gone. casket

maltedfalcon wrote:: I haven't seen anything better than the image /Picture 'Count' association... It looks to me to be the methodology that BP meant for us to use to unequivocally associate the picture with the verse But it's unequivocally wrong about one of the only two solved puzzles.  :P Image 4, Month 3, Verse 4. Without explaining that, you've no hope of explaining the rest.

This to me represents conclusive visual evidence that any specific visual aspect related to looking at a map and perhaps looking at any scene from a standard eye level position might be turned upside-down and/or reversed "from right to left".  This is a key piece of information about the Cleveland site that wasn't covered by Egbert's reports. Egbert raised the question about the confusion in perspective where after he hopped up the seven steps the spot to dig was really beneath the 10th stone from LEFT to RIGHT rather than as the verse indicated from RIGHT to LEFT.  This may remain inconclusive, but I wonder if it's more about the anchoring of a perspective as it's visually indicated.  The columns in foreground and monolithic wall sketched in the center of the image indicate a perspective from the east entrance side of the Grecean Gardens.  The seven steps up are on the west side of the wall.  Being as the columns and the wall are symmetrical in design, it's ambiguous in terms of whether the intention is to portray a scene in reverse perspective.  If we assume that all images are in reverse perspective, maybe we'll start to gather a better sense of how to interpret the "instructions" from the verses. The SF image does something different, turning only 45 degrees, If this is reversed the G and h will be read correctly. In New Orleans, looking straight ahead at the rooftop of Tomb No.21 and looking to the right you see the statue of Morazan.  As you can see, I reversed the image to show a match between one hem and the others. In San Juan Island, I've rotated 90 degrees and reversed to show the side of the rooftop that comes close to fitting the perspective of this photo.  I don't know if the jewel's location in the image fits any relative sense for where the casque is located, but I'm guessing the ideal position to see the proper skew of the roof is somewhere to the left of the photographer's positon, Here's my take on Milwaukee with Kosciuszko's left boot (toe pointing south), which I'm having a hard time assessing the likeness, here's a few options, flipped and reversed, maybe someone can spot whether it is or isn't close enough...and if it is, then I think the size of the wrinkled fabric in the image suggests it's right up close, meaning the casque must be right at the base of the statue!

For Fair Folk’s sake Goodness first Compare the phrase "for goodness sake".    Notice the reversal of sake and goodness.  The origin definition of sake is "crime".  Good is a first thing as far as theology.  Maybe there should be more invested in looking into things which identify as being "firsts".

erexere wrote:: Compare the phrase "for goodness sake". Notice the reversal of sake and goodness. I was just thinking about that. It is an odd turn of phrase, isn't it? I can't even interpret it at face value, let alone as a clue. Along similar lines... what the heck are "simple roots" anyway? That's a phrase that sounds fine to us because it's so familiar by now, but if someone wrote or said it in another context, we would scratch our heads and wonder what they're talking about. Simple as opposed to what? Complex roots? Does simple mean small?

Context is everything. I was just thinking about "there's a road that leads to..." and I thought, hey, what about Damascus?  Damascus, Oregon is less than 20 miles away from Corbett...but the correct context would be more associated with the Outer Banks, where there's the Oregon Inlet just south of Roanoke. Simple roots...seems like it should apply to music or epic poetry, depending on how you interpret rhapsodic man, and then whatever is meant by soil, which could be either simple earth, or something fouled.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: But it's unequivocally wrong about one of the only two solved puzzles.  :P Image 4, Month 3, Verse 4. Without explaining that, you've no hope of explaining the rest. Oh sorry, I thought Four21Thrasher explained that. Look carefully at image 4  While there is a triangle on a sphere (That indicates Euclid, Not 3 ) There are no clock hands , nothing at all that really indicates a Number (besides lat lon...) It is totally possible that the number for this image is zero in which case you start a 4 and stay at 4 giving you verse 4.

forest_blight wrote:: I'm afraid I disagree, malt. In each case, BP gives a pretty strong hint without directing you unambiguously to the correct image. In any case, a reference to an image in a verse need not be for the purpose of establishing a pairing, but could also be a way to give a clue that can only be understood once the pairing has been made. 1. For "seek the columns," there are really only two good candidate images he could be talking about, so that's actually a really good hint for finding a P/V pairing. It eliminates 10 images for that verse. 2. For the "east steps," I realize that many images have clocks. One must first pair the verse with the relevant image to make any use of this clue, but it is definitely a reference to a specific image (i.e., when you have identified the correct image for this verse, figure out the relevant hour, multiply it by two, and start walking). 3. For the "land near the window," the land in question is clearly the outline of Roanoke, which is literally "near the window" in P3. Of the windows in other verses, none of them have "lands" near them, at least not quite so blatantly. So this is a clue for pairing an image with a verse. Forgive me ahead of time for re-hashing a bunch of existing theories, but as far as discussing methodology, this train of thought also lends some weight to the Image 1 / Verse 7 pairing. My personal thoughts are, "Stone wall's door" could, and probably does serve 2 purposes. First, it's a hint to direct us to the portcullis in Image 1. The fact that the object is a portcullis and not some other type of door is significant to me. Note that I say "stone wall" and not "rock formation".  I think the lack of texture in the drawing of the stone that the portcullis is on compared to the other rocks in the picture is worth noting. Also, Image 1 is the only image left containing a literal door on a stone wall. I say "left" because you could make a case for Image 5, but since we know that can't match due to Image 5 being found in Chicago, that one's out. I actually kind of like that fact because it does fall in line with how some of the other pieces of the larger puzzle have stacked up thus far. My take on what you said about "Seek the columns": Theoretically being either Image 4 or Image 8, if one was a completely new to The Secret, knowing nothing about the clues, you'd probably be drawn to Image 8 first when looking to match this verse. Good one, Preiss.  That being said, I think that seems to be the depth of the "trickery" employed in the construction of this hunt altogether. He didn't want to make it too easy, so of course there are going to be one or two (or more) images that can potentially match the BIG hint that links the image to the verse.  It's up to us as the treasure hunters to fit the other clues together so that it makes sense. And to again repeat some of what you already said, when you apply that to the "land near the window" in Verse 11, it only becomes painfully obvious that this is what he did when we can back that up with the quote from the Wright Brothers monument, also in Verse 11. Before you have that piece of information to solidify things, I suppose you could make a case for other windows in other Images, etc, but even then, "Many images have windows" is a stretch. I'm totally with you on this one. So back to Image 1 / Verse 7 and Methodology "At stone wall's door The air smells sweet" This "couplet" (If I'm using that term correctly, I'm no poet) takes you in to Jackson Street (Stonewall Jackson) and more specifically the (original) Ghiarardelli Chocolate building on Jackson Street, which is backed up by the stone wall's door in Image 1 and the "Gh" on the fairy's robe. The epiphany can only happen, though, AFTER you're pretty confident Image 1 is San Francisco due to "the rock" and Golden Gate Park, etc, and you've decided to take a look at Verse 7 because Image 1 has a "stone wall's door" in the picture. I think that's how Preiss put this one together. Just for fun: Image 8 (arguably image 6) = Verse 1's "Treasure Ground" (The jewel in image 8 is the only one drawn on the ground). edit: Just clarifying I mean the original Ghirardelli building, (415-431 Jackson St).

Lots of good thinking lately.  The ambiguity of any verse aspects is in my opinion that which makes it a puzzle.  However we intelectualize the finer points we must always face the reality of orientation and placement of a casque in some setting.  I'm sure some pieces of verse help get us to the setting, but the bulk of it is needed to establish the immediate surroundings. I've dramatically shifted the way I approach this hunt over the past couple years.  Now I'm finding it most compelling to do a virtual exercise in a setting that I suspect to hold a casque and break it down into major features, for example: a bunch of trees, one big statue, a church steeple across the street, a fire hydrant...nothing else of note.  Then I look to the poem for clarity.  Should there be 20 lines of poem, it's acceptable to me to see the first 3-4 lines as introductory to some key approach, the next 3-4 lines as a description of a statue, etc., and the meld one or two significant visual clues to the image.  When it all makes sense, you know you're ready for action.  maltedfalcon knows what this process is all about.  He's used his strict logic and best instincts to dig immediately beyond the balustrade and tried a number of different approaches to the various objects in the local sphere of influence.  Unfortunately it's a tampered area...so much has changed that its really really difficult to see any way of recovery based on good solid principles.  I disagree that the SF casque is lost, but that requires a more ambitious approach, which isn't a methodology that seems motivated by the overall image/verse/or past solves.  I understand that...I just think this isn't the time to shut out the more creative approaches.

erexere wrote:: For Fair Folk’s sake Goodness first Compare the phrase "for goodness sake".    Notice the reversal of sake and goodness.  The origin definition of sake is "crime".  Good is a first thing as far as theology.  Maybe there should be more invested in looking into things which identify as being "firsts". I just looked back at the book. The actual phrase is "For Fair Folk's peace / Goodness first." Still, it's a weird phrase.

A big clue arises from the creation of the images in the book. I understand that BP would send drawings and photos and presumably maps to the artist for him to incorporate in his artwork. This is reminiscent of a "paper and pencil" game whereby an opponent draws a shape or squiggle and you have to use your imagination to turn it into something. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Squiggle " ...children wrote in with their "squiggles" and Mr. Squiggle would turn them into recognisable drawings by connecting lines with his pencil nose. More often than not, the picture would be drawn upside down (Hetherington manipulated the puppet from above by viewing the drawing upside down), and then Mr. Squiggle would gleefully declare: "Upside down! Upside down!" – asking his assistant to turn the picture the right way up and reveal the completed drawing." So JJP was a genius at this. And in addition concealed the original locations so well that we are only just finding them.

Long flights of steps seems to be a common theme for many of the locations: - Milwaukee has its 95 steps. - New York Prospect Park has 105 steps to the top of Lookout Hill. - San Francisco giant steps everywhere. - Montreal has a long stairway up to top of Mount Royal Park.

wk wrote:: Long flights of steps seems to be a common theme for many of the locations: - Milwaukee has its 95 steps. - New York Prospect Park has 105 steps to the top of Lookout Hill. - San Francisco giant steps everywhere. - Montreal has a long stairway up to top of Mount Royal Park. The common theme is that no casques have been found at the locations you list. Not to say casques are not at those locations, but linking the steps and the cities just isn't a clue if it isn't helpful in determining the casques' locations (even if the casques were to be found at these locations). This is like my/others assertion that trains and their tracks are a theme... Of course they are found near the locations... they are everywhere, which yields an unhelpful, however true, linkage. It's too broad of a hypothesis. I've actually wondered if this same reasoning applies when we talk about the Olmsted commonality. He was everywhere back in the day, so surely we are going to find his hands all over the parks of major cities. Is this helpful, I dunno... Pick a random major city and see if you can't find a major park within originating with Olmsted.

Also I'm pretty sure the giant step in SF indicates one giant step not once giant stair. its an indication of distance not a description of a different level.

It would be nice to see Shecrab complete her linear analysis of the verses.  That was some of the most cerebral work Ive seen on these boards.  More of that kind of approach might help us understand the subtleties at work.

Egbert wrote:: I think you are referring to the cup he was holding.  That was the Italian fountain next to the Greek Garden.  I don't think we ever figured out the helmet. see image 4 thread.

Since this is the methodology thread, I thought I'd share my working "assumptions" document for The Secret . After banging my head against the San Francisco puzzle for a while, I'm trying to step back and take a broader look at what rules apply. I'm basing a lot of this on the two solved casques, as well as the areas that seem to have strong consensus on these forums. --- CASQUE LOCATIONS Each casque is buried in a mid-size or large public park in a major city, with the precise location identified relative to trees, bodies of water, or manmade structures. In theory, correctly interpreting the clues will lead to a single correct dig site, as opposed to an area in which multiple test holes are required. This suggests that each casque is buried either directly beneath a identifiable point on a landmark, or at a distance from a landmark measured in some unit (feet, steps, etc.) or by reference to a second landmark (walk south from A until B is due east). In practice, human error and movement of landmarks over time might necessitate multiple digs. Each casque can be located at any time of day or year, without reference to shadows, seasonal decorations, or other transient features. IMAGES Each image features a gemstone and flower associated with a birth month. These gems and flowers also link each image to an order in the "Litany of the Jewels" poem and to the immigrant culture listed therein. Imagery in the paintings further confirms each immigrant culture with varying degrees of emphasis. Any further significance to month number or order in the Litany remains unconfirmed. Each image includes a numeric representation of its month, in the form of a clock or countable items. Each image includes several distinct clue elements: local landmarks represented literally or as outlines/silhouettes, concealed or prominent numbers, concealed maps, and one confirmed example of a rebus. Clue elements are often reversed or inverted. Hidden numbers are often consistent with longitude and latitude coordinates around a likely burial city. Number pairs are often hidden using the same method (both in hair, both in leaves, etc.) The images include many densely-textured areas: hair, stonework, rocks, branches, water, etc. Because of the amount of detail in these areas, it is easy to construe all sorts of words, maps, and images in them. These findings should be treated as cases of pareidolia unless they irrefutably jump out at multiple viewers with minimal prompting; a side-by-side presentation of the image and the real-world object should be sufficient. Any "hidden" image that requires the application of additional lines and markings in order to be understood should not be taken seriously. Elements that have not been demonstrated as relevant: color choices; positions of hands and fingers (pointing); elements visible only by foreshortening, folding, "folding-in", mirroring, or otherwise distorting an image. VERSES Verses provide directions from the immediate area within the correct city park. Phrases like "Fifteen rows down to the ground"; "Take five steps in the area of his direction"; "The end of ten by thirteen" are likely measurements to the final dig position. If verses describe elements of their related images, this is done sporadically or coincidentally. There is no regular system of acrostic or anagram using first, last, or other letters in the verses. Each line should be read as written; there are no invisible periods or other punctuation marks that would radically change the text. For example, verse one should not be read, "Fortress north, cold as glass friendship. South take your task…" Allusions to famous individuals or events point to plaques or statues in the burial area. Lone capital letters stand for proper names. No confirmed cases of proper names representing their initial letters. Named months, hours, or years might represent text on nearby plaques or the numbers themselves (e.g. March=3). Words indicating degree—tall, nearby, not far, giant—can lead to widely differing landmarks and locations. When in doubt, favor a more extreme case: the wall ten feet away is "nearby", in preference to an information kiosk across a parking lot. IMAGE/VERSE PAIRING There might or might not be a master system for correlating images and verses. The birth months, "Litany of the Jewels" poem, or immigration map could be part of such a system. Any master system must account for the solved pairings of i4/v4 and i5/v12. Master systems that account for strong but unsolved pairings (i8/v1 for instance) will have greater validity. METHODS NOT USED The economy of images and verses does not allow for descriptions of long routes leading to burial sites. If an image includes landmarks far from the casque's immediate location, they are included as city or neighborhood confirmers and not as the starting point of step-by-step directions. Complex, cryptic crossword style wordplay and substitution is not used. Where wordplay or substitution is indicated, it is a single-step rebus, synonym, or acrostic. For example, "ursine" might lead us to "bear" but would not lead us to bear=bare=naked=a nude sculpture. Anagrams are not used at all. The portions of the book following the images and verses are completely irrelevant to the treasure hunt. ---

Since this is the methodology thread, I thought I'd share my working "assumptions" document for The Secret. After banging my head against the San Francisco puzzle for a while, I'm trying to step back and take a broader look at what rules apply. I'm basing a lot of this on the two solved casques, as well as the areas that seem to have strong consensus on these forums. --- CASQUE LOCATIONS Each casque is buried in a mid-size or large public park in a major city, with the precise location identified relative to trees, bodies of water, or manmade structures. In theory, correctly interpreting the clues will lead to a single correct dig site, as opposed to an area in which multiple test holes are required. This suggests that each casque is buried either directly beneath a identifiable point on a landmark, or at a distance from a landmark measured in some unit (feet, steps, etc.) or by reference to a second landmark (walk south from A until B is due east). In practice, human error and movement of landmarks over time might necessitate multiple digs. Each casque can be located at any time of day or year, without reference to shadows, seasonal decorations, or other transient features. IMAGES Each image features a gemstone and flower associated with a birth month. These gems and flowers also link each image to an order in the "Litany of the Jewels" poem and to the immigrant culture listed therein. Imagery in the paintings further confirms each immigrant culture with varying degrees of emphasis. Any further significance to month number or order in the Litany remains unconfirmed. Each image includes a numeric representation of its month, in the form of a clock or countable items. Each image includes several distinct clue elements: local landmarks represented literally or as outlines/silhouettes, concealed or prominent numbers, concealed maps, and one confirmed example of a rebus. Clue elements are often reversed or inverted. Hidden numbers are often consistent with longitude and latitude coordinates around a likely burial city. Number pairs are often hidden using the same method (both in hair, both in leaves, etc.) The images include many densely-textured areas: hair, stonework, rocks, branches, water, etc. Because of the amount of detail in these areas, it is easy to construe all sorts of words, maps, and images in them. These findings should be treated as cases of pareidolia unless they irrefutably jump out at multiple viewers with minimal prompting; a side-by-side presentation of the image and the real-world object should be sufficient. Any "hidden" image that requires the application of additional lines and markings in order to be understood should not be taken seriously. Elements that have not been demonstrated as relevant: color choices; positions of hands and fingers (pointing); elements visible only by foreshortening, folding, "folding-in", mirroring, or otherwise distorting an image. VERSES Verses provide directions from the immediate area within the correct city park. Phrases like "Fifteen rows down to the ground"; "Take five steps in the area of his direction"; "The end of ten by thirteen" are likely measurements to the final dig position. If verses describe elements of their related images, this is done sporadically or coincidentally. There is no regular system of acrostic or anagram using first, last, or other letters in the verses. Each line should be read as written; there are no invisible periods or other punctuation marks that would radically change the text. For example, verse one should not be read, "Fortress north, cold as glass friendship. South take your task…" Allusions to famous individuals or events point to plaques or statues in the burial area. Lone capital letters stand for proper names. No confirmed cases of proper names representing their initial letters. Named months, hours, or years might represent text on nearby plaques or the numbers themselves (e.g. March=3). Words indicating degree—tall, nearby, not far, giant—can lead to widely differing landmarks and locations. When in doubt, favor a more extreme case: the wall ten feet away is "nearby", in preference to an information kiosk across a parking lot. IMAGE/VERSE PAIRING There might or might not be a master system for correlating images and verses. The birth months, "Litany of the Jewels" poem, or immigration map could be part of such a system. Any master system must account for the solved pairings of i4/v4 and i5/v12. Master systems that account for strong but unsolved pairings (i8/v1 for instance) will have greater validity. METHODS NOT USED The economy of images and verses does not allow for descriptions of long routes leading to burial sites. If an image includes landmarks far from the casque's immediate location, they are included as city or neighborhood confirmers and not as the starting point of step-by-step directions. Complex, cryptic crossword style wordplay and substitution is not used. Where wordplay or substitution is indicated, it is a single-step rebus, synonym, or acrostic. For example, "ursine" might lead us to "bear" but would not lead us to bear=bare=naked=a nude sculpture. Anagrams are not used at all. The portions of the book following the images and verses are completely irrelevant to the treasure hunt. ---

treetops, do you think there are riddles contained in the verses?

Of course the verses are riddles; each describes a dig site with language that intentionally obscures the solution. The question is, what is the nature of these riddles? What devices do they use? There are riddles based on puns and wordplay ( conundra ), riddles based on allusion and metaphor ( enigmas ), riddles based on math, riddles based on lateral thinking. riddles based on logic, cryptic crosswords based on anagrams and other word manipulations. The two solved casques suggest that the verses in The Secret hide their meaning through some allusion ("Pass two friends of octave in December") but mainly by reference to physical objects outside of our current frame of reference. Once you're in the correct area of the correct park, it will be possible to relate the verse's lines to your surroundings. Not being there, everything will seem vague and cryptic. This isn't too different from the type of riddle that uses veiled language to refer to details within a specific discipline or subject area. Take the famous "One of Six to Eight" riddle from Masquerade. If I tell you that the answer is an English monarch, it gets a lot easier. If I tell you it's one of the wives of Henry the Eighth, it's pretty much over. Without that information you might spend a lot of time thinking about math, chemistry, music, or some other area. The complicating factor with The Secret is that even though we're pretty well agreed on which cities most of the casques were buried in, there don't seem to be adequate clues to get from each city to the correct area within a park, so unless someone familiar with the images and verses stumbles upon a treasure ground, we don't have the proper context to decipher these riddles.

Of course the verses are riddles; each describes a dig site with language that intentionally obscures the solution. The question is, what is the nature of these riddles? What devices do they use? There are riddles based on puns and wordplay ( conundra ), riddles based on allusion and metaphor ( enigmas ), riddles based on math, riddles based on lateral thinking. riddles based on logic, cryptic crosswords based on anagrams and other word manipulations. The two solved casques suggest that the verses in The Secret hide their meaning through some allusion ("Pass two friends of octave in December") but mainly by reference to physical objects outside of our current frame of reference. Once you're in the correct area of the correct park, it will be possible to relate the verse's lines to your surroundings. Not being there, everything will seem vague and cryptic. This isn't too different from the type of riddle that uses veiled language to refer to details within a specific discipline or subject area. Take the famous "One of Six to Eight" riddle from Masquerade. If I tell you that the answer is an English monarch, it gets a lot easier. If I tell you it's one of the wives of Henry the Eighth, it's pretty much over. Without that information you might spend a lot of time thinking about math, chemistry, music, or some other area. The complicating factor with The Secret is that even though we're pretty well agreed on which cities most of the casques were buried in, there don't seem to be adequate clues to get from each city to the correct area within a park, so unless someone familiar with the images and verses stumbles upon a treasure ground, we don't have the proper context to decipher these riddles.

Thank you very much for the excellent response.  It really helps to how there are several options to how we may treat the verses.  I think theres one critical master method that allows a window of opportunity to aim for treasure ground.  Otherwise what is it, blind luck? Theres a variety of tactics involved in how ive exercised my theories.  Most hover around word origin stuff and a revolving door with Greek mythology.  Ambiguities actually clarify things by narrowing it down somewhat and should one jnique perspective play nice with a theme that ties some or all of the other parts together, then its worth a closer look.  In Cleveland, the LotJ lines talknof nymphs, spring water and use the word sweet.  Ambiguous to an extent, sweet can be applied in multiple ways, anything that is pleasing, or more naturally as a sensation of taste.  Then the idea of spring water has the natural implication of the act of drinking.  To drink one might go to the water source or have it on hand in the form of hydriai, the classic water jug, as discussed in Samuel Birch's historical book on Ancient Pottery.  Its comfortable to see a Greek based theory identify with Cleveland.  When it comes to the other locations, understandably, it becomes difficult to ascribe such methods.  I think theres some mixing involved, and its not clear to me how all share in the Greek point of view.  SF seems to have the possibility.  Artemis, the goddess, has many symbols to consider that may apply, viginity, the moon, the cypress; the LotJ says "chaste, perfect as the silver moon".  I consider this a good discovery as it ties in with my bench location on the cypress and eucalyptus lined roadway extending to the Palace of the Legion of Honor.  Ultimately Id like everything to fit a visual clue, but i think its more fruitful to first take a cerebral approach to the verses. Understand which option of riddle we are facing at each step of the way.  Everything is location and direction, thouh its masked as allusion or an idea.  The final four words of the Pledge of Allegience may be Preiss way of saying "use the American flag or flagpole".  If any part of your interpretation takes you near such an object, then consider how it may be tied in.  Not everything has to be line of sight either.  We know this from Cleveland and Chicago.  In the end it may be some nook or cranny behind a wall or in the corner of a park.  Theres a lot of power in Preiss words.  They dont have to be vague.  I think we have to consult a dictionary on occasion.  It reveals a lot about how words have changed as a result of migration and mingling among peoples of different cultures.

I like how you think, treetops. But I disagree with your first point under "Casque Locations." What about Roanoke?

Good point on Roanoke. It seems to be the outlier in the whole city parks theme.

treetops wrote:: CASQUE LOCATIONS Each casque is buried in a mid-size or large public park in a major city, with the precise location identified relative to trees, bodies of water, or manmade structures. treetops wrote:: VERSES Lone capital letters stand for proper names. No confirmed cases of proper names representing their initial letters. treetops wrote:: METHODS NOT USED Complex, cryptic crossword style wordplay and substitution is not used. I like the idea of this...to pick your brain...do you think that, when he could, BP used parks that were bordering ("touching") a body of water? (e.g. Grant Park, Lake Park, Cleveland Cultural Gardens (essentially-the Nature Preserve), etc? This may have been gone over (and over), but my point is, if his first choice for a site was a park or preserve on the water in most of these locations, I think it could rule out several (more improbable) spots. For example, following this line of reasoning, WPG (the Battery) in Charleston could be argued as the most probable. Second could be Fort Moultrie (depending on your stance on which verse is for Charleston), followed then by Washington Park, etc...Just trying to organize... What do you think about "Citadel" in Verse 5? Do you think this is a proper noun? This could be a "pointer" to a location... I like the more simple, straightforward lines of thinking for solving these. I think they are vague to apply to many places, but I don't think they contain layers and layers of codes either. "SELOY" in Verse 9, though, does seem to be on its own. Great thinking and organization! This is what we need!

tjgrey wrote:: I like the idea of this...to pick your brain...do you think that, when he could, BP used parks that were bordering ("touching") a body of water? (e.g. Grant Park, Lake Park, Cleveland Cultural Gardens (essentially-the Nature Preserve), etc? This may have been gone over (and over), but my point is, if his first choice for a site was a park or preserve on the water in most of these locations, I think it could rule out several (more improbable) spots. For example, following this line of reasoning, WPG (the Battery) in Charleston could be argued as the most probable. Second could be Fort Moultrie (depending on your stance on which verse is for Charleston), followed then by Washington Park, etc...Just trying to organize... tjgrey wrote:: What do you think about "Citadel" in Verse 5? Do you think this is a proper noun? This could be a "pointer" to a location... tjgrey wrote:: I like the more simple, straightforward lines of thinking for solving these. I think they are vague to apply to many places, but I don't think they contain layers and layers of codes either. "SELOY" in Verse 9, though, does seem to be on its own. Great thinking and organization! This is what we need! I don't see a reason to insist on the presence of water, though in keeping with the immigration theme, many of these sites will be in coastal cities. As has been pointed out, the casque that seems to be on Roanoke Island blows my city parks assumption. There are a few unexpected capitalizations, or non-capitalizations, in the verses: Fair, oz, Hard word, etc. Are these intentional gestures or careless editing? I think the only example in a solved verse is "Congress", which does in fact refer to a street name. "Citadel", however, is at the start of a line and so its being capitalized is not unusual. As I noted, there is some simple, single-step wordplay, metaphor, and allusion. When I said no regular system of acrostic, I was thinking of SELOY, which is the only example I know of.

treetops wrote:: Verses provide directions from the immediate area within the correct city park Not quite sure what you mean by this, but I don't think we can be certain how wide an area the verses cover. The Friendship State seems a plausible interpretation of "Friendship south", for instance.

I think you've got my meaning WhiteRabbit. My assumption has been that the primary use of the verses is to get you from the immediate area of a casque to its precise location and not, for instance, to start you in Oklahoma and prompt you to cross the border into Texas because its motto is "Friendship". I can see that there are cases where this might not be true of every line in a verse. What I'm responding to are theories where the lines of a verse are taken to refer to disparate sites all around a city, leaving precious little to narrow down the location to a square foot of earth. I also don't think there are any cases of the verse getting you to the correct park area and the image then pointing to the exact spot to dig. Again, Roanoke appears most likely to break my assumptions if "Ride the man of oz" is an instruction to take the Thomas A. Baum ferry to the island.

I can't agree with you more treetops. I believe your breakdown is exactly how these things work. Just because some of our believed locations haven't been unearthed doesn't mean that they are incorrect leading us to try to tear down the wordings more. The only thing this leads to is forced fits. I know, I've done it myself. If this were the case, the Cleveland casque would never have been found. I feel quite confident of the list of cities we have made...from lat/lon when visible to landmarks such as Milwaukee's City Hall. I also believe that all of these cities will be port cities. I will eat my hat, along with any hats anyone cares to send me, if a casque is found in some obscure city like Omaha Nebraska or Eugene Oregon. It just won't happen.  I've said it before and I will continue to say it ---- THE ONLY THING GOING AGAINST US IS THE PASSAGE OF TIME ----. Period. We are probably a lot closer to many of these than we know. Finally, why do you keep saying Roanoke is an exception to your City Park rule? I don't see how it can be anywhere but within the Elizabethan Gardens. Again, thanks for your clear and concise take on how these riddles work. I think you hit the nail on the head.

fox wrote:: I can't agree with you more treetops. I believe your breakdown is exactly how these things work. Just because some of our believed locations haven't been unearthed doesn't mean that they are incorrect leading us to try to tear down the wordings more. The only thing this leads to is forced fits. I know, I've done it myself. If this were the case, the Cleveland casque would never have been found. I feel quite confident of the list of cities we have made...from lat/lon when visible to landmarks such as Milwaukee's City Hall. I also believe that all of these cities will be port cities. I will eat my hat, along with any hats anyone cares to send me, if a casque is found in some obscure city like Omaha Nebraska or Eugene Oregon. It just won't happen.  I've said it before and I will continue to say it ---- THE ONLY THING GOING AGAINST US IS THE PASSAGE OF TIME ----. Period. We are probably a lot closer to many of these than we know. Finally, why do you keep saying Roanoke is an exception to your City Park rule? I don't see how it can be anywhere but within the Elizabethan Gardens. Again, thanks for your clear and concise take on how these riddles work. I think you hit the nail on the head. I think Verse 5 could potentially violate the city park theory with the "Get permission" line.

Many of these rules sound pretty arbitrary if you ask me. At the end of the day, this quest will now only be progressed by someone who goes barmy with a shovel, not by making lists of guidelines. I don't think it'll ever happen.

Rules....shmules...Preiss said if we are playful we might find these.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: At the end of the day, this quest will now only be progressed by someone who goes barmy with a shovel, not by making lists of guidelines. I don't think it'll ever happen. Right. Realistically, there will have to be some moonlighting for some sites. Maybe not all but I don't see permission to dig being granted for most of these that are left. So there's risk vs. reward...now who wants to dig?! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think the permission aspect is all about your approach. When I went to Milwaukee I asked permission from the parks director to probe only. She knew about the book from other people asking to search the parks. I told her I would only probe and if I did find something I would let her know before I ever put the shovel to the ground. She said if I found something we'll talk about a possible dig but I would have to prove that it was indeed the site. So she didn't say no. She was actually interested. She was mainly concerned with people just randomly digging up parts of the park without asking and appreciated how I went about it. I called her when I got there and I called her when I was leaving. If we ever narrow down a site 100% I'm sure I can get permission to dig there.

Deuce wrote:: I think the permission aspect is all about your approach. When I went to Milwaukee I asked permission from the parks director to probe only. She knew about the book from other people asking to search the parks. I told her I would only probe and if I did find something I would let her know before I ever put the shovel to the ground. She said if I found something we'll talk about a possible dig but I would have to prove that it was indeed the site. So she didn't say no. She was actually interested. She was mainly concerned with people just randomly digging up parts of the park without asking and appreciated how I went about it. I called her when I got there and I called her when I was leaving. If we ever narrow down a site 100% I'm sure I can get permission to dig there. That's an excellent resource to have, Deuce. The only reason I mentioned the "get permission" part is to point out that from we we know of Cleveland and Chicago, the dig site related to the "permission" line in Verse 5 would need to be more precarious than Grant Park or the Cultural Gardens, locations which he evidently did not feel were necessary of a similar caveat.

I see. Yeah, considering he doesn't say that of all the casques, the one associated with verse 5 must be in a real private area.

If "get permission" is as literal as it seems, it's pretty galling that Preiss would do this in light of the then-current news stories about Masquerade fanatics digging up all kinds of private property, people's lawns, etc. in search of the hare. And if someone is concerned about being "scooped" on a casque, are they really likely to tell a property owner, "I think there's buried treasure here. Okay if I dig it out?" Finally, if you're supposed to get permission to dig, did Preiss get permission to bury?

I thought about that too. The permission line may be part of the hunt and not literal. Maybe the site is near a "permission" reference. Maybe a trespassing sign or private property sign. Something along those lines.

My trial reenactment went well. I had fun burying this the week before Thanksgiving.  It containd a magic box that makes things disappear through a secret compartment.  On Thanksgiving the kids went to work with theiir tools of escavation and recoveres the box.  It was immense fun seeing the process through.  This box was extremely durable and water tight.

love it concise and all in 1 post, hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 65#p127265

It is concise from a technical and empirical perspective.  All we need to do now is take things a step further and actually discuss the riddles and context.

I just ran through a spreadsheet and identified six major clues called out in all images, either specifically or through some manner of objective-ish (as opposed to completely subjective) interpretation (e.g., Liberty from Cleveland or Milwaukee rebus): Land/City/State Identifier Building or Park Identifier Doorway or Window by/at a Park Statue at a Park Entrance to a Park Road Identifier These things are contained in all images, and usually confirmed or played with through the verse. However, any spacial relationship to the dig location cannot be derived from these clues. Even though some of the categories are unsolved for every image, they seem to undoubtedly be present in all. One thing to note is that just because a park is called out by one of the categories, a totally different park can be called out by another (e.g., Jackson Square - outline of a park, and Lafayette Square - statue at a park). Also, each category may have one or more image clues that fall into the category bucket (e.g., Chicago Bulls and Illinois are both in the Land/City/State Identifier bucket). I realize this seems arbitrary, but one conclusion is that we can arrive at the correct cities without the lat/long coordinates. Have a run at it... The images that allow us to fill all six buckets seem to correspond to the images we believe we've correctly linked a verse with. The images for which we can only fill five buckets now work with one of the verses that has no definitive mate. Search the estranged verses for a line that identifies the final bucket... and that is your pairing??

Interesting.. I don't know if this would help new hunters but it helped me narrow down the types of clues I should be looking for the verses. I only put the ones that most people agree on so there are some missing. V# Line                                     Interpretation                                                   Type of Clue 1 Fortress North Cold as glass     Glassel School of Art                                    Building 1 Friendship south                     Friendship Pavillion                                           Permanent outside structure 1 To the number nine eight two     SP Train 982                                                   Permanent outside structure 3 If Thucydides is North..             Boston public library names on side of building   Inscription or sign 3 coliseum with metal walls     Fenway park                                                   Building 3 Feel at home                     Mother's Rest park                                           Park or area 4 Beneath two countries             Cleveland cultural gardens                                   Park or area 4 As the road curves             curved road on map                                           Map reference 4 Socrates, Pindar, Apelles     names inscribed on wall                                   Inscription or sign 8 View the three stories of Mitchell  Mitchell Hall                                                   Building 9 The first chapter                     Sign at FOY park                                           Inscription or sign 9 You can still hear the honking      Geese at FOY park                                           Permanent outside structure 9 Shell, limestone, silver, salt     Sign at FOY park                                           Inscription or sign 9 Stars move by day             Planetarium                                                   Building 11 Pass two friend of Octave..     Wright Brothers Memorial                                  Permanent outside structure 11 Ride the man of Oz..             Washington Baum bridge                                   Permanent outside structure 11 Dark forest                          words from Elizabethan garden entrance            Inscription or sign 11 After circle and square               central fountain area                                      Permanent outside structure 11 In July and August               words inscribed at Ft. Raleigh                         Inscription or sign 11 to mica and driftwood               beach                                                         Park or area 12 where M and B are set in stone Mozart and Beethoven inscribed on building Inscription or sign 12 and to congress R is known       Roosevelt University on Congress Pkwy         Building 12 L sits and left                      Lincoln statue                                         Permanent outside structure 12 rumble                               train tracks nearby                                         Permanent outside structure 12 brush                               Art institute                                         Building 12 music                               Chicago symphony                                 Building

I don't know if anybody is interested, but I have a fully scanned copy of the book at 600 dpi with OCR (i.e., fully searchable). All 224 pages are included. As this is copyrighted content, I am not making the link publicly accessible. Please let me know if you'd like the download link. If/when provided, please do not post online... any where.

I've enjoyed reworking the solves for Chicago and Cleveland.  I'm close to completing a chart showing the practical application of theLitany of the Jewels for all the locations.  In terms of concrete clues and thematic consistency I've ruled out a lot of old theory (i'm speaking of the bulk of my earlier ideas) and in favor of a nice selection of clean and simple ideas.  I understand why people have been stuck, or given up, or resigned to believe some are unrecoverable.  I'm glad I stumbled on so many convoluted iterations in my search for ideas.  While people were generally put off by my hubris, I'm glad to keep a positive outlook.  Someone here is going to find a casque soon.  Something tells me it wont be me, but thats okay.  I hope to share my new notes as soon as a certain idea has been tested and confirmed.  In the meantime, anyone making any progress on anything theyre not at liberty to discuss as far as details go?  Or is that too vague?

It seems to me that everything makes sense when seeing things from a Fair Folk perspective.  Based on tbe LotJ, I can see how those particular fairies sought a spot which was closest to something that can hold water: the poet urns.  Its the Fair Folk who use the word white to describe something in color (with two maps) or a stone, they may be referring only to something specific to the "White Man" which is also a Native perspective.

(Revising some of my thoughts.) Constraints: 1. Each dig spot is precisely determined. There is no guesswork needed. In most cases, two lines will intersect at a point. The challenge is recognizing the correct features from which to fix these lines. 2. Words hold hidden meanings. We see the word "spout" in V1 and we think it means something like a water faucet, but if this is meant to define an area near an outdoor stage, then it could be applied as meaning some sort of oratory, public speaking or as an actor performing in a play which implies a stage. There's many candidate words in each verse to apply consideration for what's implied. Another example from V1, "a whistle sounds", might easily be taken to mean "look for something with a whistle," but it could also mean "has some form or quality of a whistle's sound" which could be a) sounds hollow, b) high pitched (the high pitched rooftop of an A-frame structure), c) an orchestral space (at the base of a performance stage), and d) surely there are others I've not thought of... 3. Visual themes and matching lines. Some lines may match the outline of a statue, building, state shape, or even a road map, though evidence of this through what we've seen in Cleveland and Chicago show these strong correlations are rotated 90 or 180 and sometimes mirrored. Cleveland uses an image of a centaur and a sphere standing on a wall. It's possible these were thematically intended to draw attention to those objects which were standing on the wall along the west side of the garden, two poet urns. The centaur's tail curvature is precisely shaped like the nearest roadway. Chicago's visual theme uses many objects extending off the tops and sides of a castle like hat. Such extentions would usually be characterized as gargoyles, weather vanes, or lightning rods, though ornamentary in most cases they may also serve a specific function such as conducting water flow off the roof or conducting electricty from lightning strikes. The verse does a good job alluding or implying the "conductor" theme given the reference to M and B as Mozart and Beethoven or "Rumble, Brush, and Music, Hush" for the sound of thunder or a railway train or the electrical contacts called "brushes" or the water spout used for irrigation which the dictionary allows to be called a "hush". 4. The first line = dual meaning, general context and also applies to method for seeking. Elaboration of this concept is in development or being withheld for the time being.

One thing thats been on my mind most about how to go about narrowing down the clues that should lead us successfully to a location is how we take into consideration any of our match-to-image finds. I'm referring to things like the fence post and arch in Chicago for P5 or Cleveland's pair of columns and monolithic wall for P4. We're left to guess which pictoral references are suppose to be isolated for each image. The most important thing I wonder about, should it matter, is if that isolation is indicative of standing in a critical spot. Disclaimer: this might only apply to only some of the locations. My guesses: P1: the disc shaped table top P2: the disc shaped flower center P3: the mace weapon on the arm shaped like a water tower P4: the columns and wall P5: the fence post w/ arch P6: the outline below the iceberg P7: the hemline of the sleeve P8: the tilted stone P9: the shoulder line, sloping on both sides as a particular shelter's rooftop P10: the wrinkles on the cloak interior shaped like the wrinkles if a statue's highboot P11: kinda stumped... P12: another roofline shaped like the darkened space inside the woman's elbow I think its critically important to find a good reason for taking each perspective aside form seeking such a perspective to match any whim. To a degree, as far as catching a lucky picture online, I have done my best to decide where it makes sense to stand based on thematic reasons or constraints fully dependent on dictionary defintions of key words in verse, and Ive done my best to judge between which visuals are associated with the general area like Maltedfalcon's "iconic image" and those that are specific to wherever Byron stood after burying each casque.

erexere wrote:: . The most important thing I wonder about, should it matter, is if that isolation is indicative of standing in a critical spot. Disclaimer: this might only apply to only some of the locations. I think there are two kinds of images like that hidden in the images. the first are images from around the treasure ground, but the critical ones seem to be things you can see from the exact location of the buried casque.

I've been working out a document which attempts to explain the way the verse works. First Line = designed to connect an idea to a specific place Lines which follow and excluding Last = designed to draw the minimum needed references to find a specific "square" of ground Last Line = subtle confirmation that you've found the correct spot I feel like I'm closing in on the way the First Lines work. The last lines are still very mysterious to me. I should have an explanation for Chicago's "Hush," and Cleveland's "For the search," but I don't, so this theory fails to meet expectations. It's difficult to say for sure given changes, or lack of any confirmation, but I believe "Hush" has to do with a water drain pipe of some kind that could relate to the 10x13 spot in Chicago. A hush is a terminology which may apply to anything which channels water. I wonder at the possibility that a special type of "search" is being hinted by Cleveland's line, possibly a "wordsearch", which is a rectangular grid of letters that presents the challenge of finding words spelled in various directions, including backwards, which might offer an additional explanation as to why Sir Egbert was stymied by the reversal of the dig instructions which seemed to fit an oddly opposite scenario, reversing Right and Left...or the convention based on which side of the wall you're suppose to establish such directions. In V7, the last line is "the casque is kept". I think 'kept' = keep = a jail = behind bars. This is very vague and slippery territory, since we don't know if we're looking at literal bars or something that we might pretend to be bars. The balusters of a balustrade for instance. Some fencing. A grating. Who knows...

Continuing the thought on the Last Line, V9's "Years pass, rain falls," reminds me of V3's "In truth, be free." In the V3 thread I expressed my idea that it could be saying "base the decision on where to dig precisely on treating the Somerset gates forwards S connecting to its backwards S as like a truth table which may use p and q, and the idea that the gates vertical bars across the S is like a $ symbol. Its the most intriguing way to make both portions of the line share the same object. I believe V9's comma separated ideas also perform such a task. Its still a huge and vague riddle in my mind especially since I have absolutely no visual evidence to support my view. Exciting challenge. So, what sorts of things could this apply to? If "be free" means NOT $ in a truth table analogy, then maybe "rain falls" has to do with a calendar or age requirement setting...like being measured for a roller coaster ride...rain fall is measured in vertical inches and you have to be a certain height (which assumes you're old enough) to ride safely. Any other ideas?

Scratch the measurement of rainfall or funride height requirements. I think it fits the idea represented by Roberts Rock, a monument to the man responsible for the Rules of Order where a "motion" may be made at a public hearing and a vote may be rendered by all in attendence. The word 'precipitation' is the key.

If someone were to post a solution to the exact location of a casque, does that cause any problems now that the book has been republished as an e-book?

wk wrote:: If someone were to post a solution to the exact location of a casque, does that cause any problems now that the book has been republished as an e-book? I don't follow? Why wouldn't we post one if we found them? Also where was it re-released, I didn't see that?

it is on Amazon as an e-book by Sean Kelly. I just feel less inhibited in what I discuss if the book is out of date but now it has been re-published viewtopic.php?f=32&t=6969&p=128281&hilit=amazon#p128281

Playing with a variety of location perspectives, I had only proposed a few reasonable possibilities. Last week I discovered another idea: the wedge. The wedge is just a variation on "two lines intersecting", but it has a critical difference in the way it may be hinted at. As an example, I might call attention to the letter X, and draw attention to four different points of reference which close on a nice intersecting point in their interior. The variation of a wedge might also use four described points but the two closest points each follow a line connected to their respective distant points and I might use a letter V as a hint. This isnt meant to suggest Byron is using the letter V in verse 10 in this manner or Xenophon in verse 3 as an X hint for such a locating method. I'm just exercising a thought experiment. Here are some of my suggestions on how points of reference are being used in combination for each of the locations: Cask 4, specified by counting stones in a wall Cask 5, "X", 90 degree reference between two lines, fence post-park lamp and a set of lamps along the edge of the bridgehead. Cask 1, "L", large line reference between two distant points, giant pole-step, refined by a small scale reference of a bench-line intersecting with a point where "arms crossed" is reflected by the large scale "bridge crossing". Cask 2, vertical, where the fruit falls, below the tree. Maybe the tree-fruit is metaphor for rain cloud-cistern and the casque is buried in the sand below the bar (place to drink) that binds (holding tank), which sits above the sand on two cement pier blocks. Cask 3, vertical, below the end of a platform across a large pole. Cask 6, wedge, based on the shape of an icebreaker. Cask 7, intersection, maybe 90 degrees, like the hands on a clock set at 12 and 3, "time keeping". Cask 8, slope, a straight line guided by a high point reference to a point of lower reference which then projects to a point on the ground, hinted at by the sloped stone near the pillar and the reference to scale the verse. Cask 9, vector, magnitude and direction in a straight line, count steps based on a reference to a significant object known as the 9 O'Clock Gun, from some spot in the middle of a three giant outdoor checkerboards in the shadow of a roofed shelter made from giant trees. Cask 10, vertical and edge, up against a wall or bank, under the boot, hinted at by imperialism, below one of the south pointing boots of Kosciuszko. Cask 11, "T", intersecting points, non-perpendicular, but based on two sets of objects, between two lamps and next intersected with vertical green line through an S, for a money symbol, $, only reversed symbolizing the negation of cost = lit by lamplight/be free. Cask 12, ?...I have an idea, not ready to share it.

I promise you that all remaining riddles will be solved in a method CLOSER to Chicago and Cleveland's, like the method tree posted a few pages back. I am not saying every single one is exactly the same, or some can/cannot have different elements or types of twists/puzzles. I won't make those statements. But I promise you that there are not 11 that work the same way and then one based on totally strange symbolism.

I've been steadily improving my work on these puzzles. The statements I'm making involve a core theory that dictates some method of constraint was used in their design. There's lots of theories to toss around and lots of ways to test them if we are willing to move beyond these forums and exercise them. I'm glad you, Xiesh, are doing your part and testing your ideas. I hope you might reconsider some of my ideas. Its okay if you don't. If its not clear to folks already, I may have done a poor job of phrasing my intent, I'm using a simple tactic of searching for constraints that each serve a purpose: Does the Litany of the Jewels apply to the hunt? Does the Vanishing hold any weight in the way it describes the Fair Folk's departure into remote places when they saw the White Man landing on the Eastern border? Does the verse have a consistency in design or structure? Ive found word definition or familiar phrase context that may be applied in a specific way for each of the first lines and each of the last lines. The body of the verse seems to apply to outlining specific people, places or events. The image elements Seem to coordinate in some cases. Each of my theories that Im exploring has some evidence to support it and the review of Cleveland or Chicago supports my insights. Various reports and articles bring different pieces of information to us about Cleveland and Chicago. Nobody has confirmed understanding 100% of those solutions and the non-necessity of such is clear in their successful recoveries despite having little or no confirmation from Byron on HOW or WHY he used ALL elements in his puzzles.

erexere wrote:: Playing with a variety of location perspectives, I had only proposed a few reasonable possibilities. Last week I discovered another idea: the wedge. The wedge is just a variation on "two lines intersecting", but it has a critical difference in the way it may be hinted at. As an example, I might call attention to the letter X, and draw attention to four different points of reference which close on a nice intersecting point in their interior. The variation of a wedge might also use four described points but the two closest points each follow a line connected to their respective distant points and I might use a letter V as a hint. This isnt meant to suggest Byron is using the letter V in verse 10 in this manner or Xenophon in verse 3 as an X hint for such a locating method. I'm just exercising a thought experiment. Here are some of my suggestions on how points of reference are being used in combination for each of the locations: Cask 4, specified by counting stones in a wall Cask 5, "X", 90 degree reference between two lines, fence post-park lamp and a set of lamps along the edge of the bridgehead. Cask 1, "L", large line reference between two distant points, giant pole-step, refined by a small scale reference of a bench-line intersecting with a point where "arms crossed" is reflected by the large scale "bridge crossing". Cask 2, vertical, where the fruit falls, below the tree. Maybe the tree-fruit is metaphor for rain cloud-cistern and the casque is buried in the sand below the bar (place to drink) that binds (holding tank), which sits above the sand on two cement pier blocks. Cask 3, vertical, below the end of a platform across a large pole. Cask 6, wedge, based on the shape of an icebreaker. Cask 7, intersection, maybe 90 degrees, like the hands on a clock set at 12 and 3, "time keeping". Cask 8, slope, a straight line guided by a high point reference to a point of lower reference which then projects to a point on the ground, hinted at by the sloped stone near the pillar and the reference to scale the verse. Cask 9, vector, magnitude and direction in a straight line, count steps based on a reference to a significant object known as the 9 O'Clock Gun, from some spot in the middle of a three giant outdoor checkerboards in the shadow of a roofed shelter made from giant trees. Cask 10, vertical and edge, up against a wall or bank, under the boot, hinted at by imperialism, below one of the south pointing boots of Kosciuszko. Cask 11, "T", intersecting points, non-perpendicular, but based on two sets of objects, between two lamps and next intersected with vertical green line through an S, for a money symbol, $, only reversed symbolizing the negation of cost = lit by lamplight/be free. Cask 12, ?...I have an idea, not ready to share it. I see what you are doing but you need to include geometric points on a triangle as a possible method. viewtopic.php?f=19&t=263&p=2195&hilit=parry+point#p2195 There is a surprising variety of ways to arrive at the final location as described in the solutions to this book: hxxp://www.treasureclub.net/publichunts/conundrum/ If you read 8. A Child's Dream three villages form the triangle but then you have to consider the perpendicular bisector of the triangle. I have not found anything like this yet in The Secret but I am suspicious of the circular items being juggled in Milwaukee image.

wk, thanks. Conundrum is VERY fascinating. I don't like all that fancy geometry stuff anymore. There's a lot of intuitive convention in how to locate something. Whatever was wrong with the Chicago finders perception of the area, Byron couldn't understand why they were having trouble so he gave them the polaroid to help. I don't have any idea what they were missing. I don't even know if there's any point in asking them now. Things have changed. Memories could be off about such highly specific details...and those details which were unobserved to begin with...forget about it. The LotJ has me most suspicious. That portion of the hunt has a major Big Lebowski feel to it, like when the Dude says "that rug really tied the room together." I honestly think there's a hidden word that pulls things into perspective. Aquamarine: Bound. Think of the two definitions for the word, 1) a boundary or border, and 2) to spring forward or over something. A boundary is something shared by two countries. The casque was found in a rectangular bounded area. "Seven steps up you can hop". For the search: determine your boundaries. Emerald: Bristle. 1) a short stiff hair or a hair that stands straight away from the skin, 2) to become irritated. Fence posts and lamp fixtures are set in stone and stand vertically up and away from the ground. Hush, relax, settle down, compromise in agreement with whatever it is that is so disagreeable. Sapphire: Icebreaker. 1) a type of ship that may navigate icy waters, 2) a thing that serves to relieve inhibitions or tension between people, or start a conversation. Turquoise: hmmm. Gonna think on this some more.

I firmly believe that the Chicago solvers solved it "incorrectly." We could ask Eggbert to recount CLE as well, but I also got the idea they drove right to the park? My guess has long been that Chicago and Cleveland are the easier puzzles, mostly because they contain a lot of (not well hidden) imagery that's very visible in the parks. Most of the other visual confirmers are scattered, and smaller. I have always gotten the sense that the solvers of Chicago narrowed it down to a park via the image clues, then went there and figured it out half on their own, rather than a step by step following of the directions. I mean, once you get Grant Park "fence and fixture" really isn't that hard, and it's pictured fairly easily in the image itself. It was easier, they were natives and recognized the images tied to the park. Which is why Preiss expected them to be solved so easily, I think. I just don't think he realized how 'poorly' some of the paintings hid the images.

fox wrote:: Let us not also forget The Litany of the Jewels.....which I believe tied in directly to the 2 found casques. Chicago:  found in Grant Park People O' Peace et all & Leprachauns etc.... * from Scotland & Ireland *LOJ  "Brilliant as eyes of Celtic folk, Cold morning green, their Emerald." Chicago has a huge Irish population....actually,  Irish-Americans are the largest ethnic group in Chicago. The city is known for it's Irish population. P5 shows the Emerald ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Cleveland:  found in the Greek Cultural Garden Centaurs etc... *  from Hellas/Crete * LOJ  "The Nymphs of Hellas cherish sweet Aquamarine, spring-water clear." Hellas/Crete = Greece. Greek Cultural Garden. P4 shows Centaur & Aquamarine ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- on to P6: Hadas etc... *  from Iberia * LOJ  "The Hads of Iberia: Sapphire, shy as a wild field flower." Hads of Iberia.  Where is Iberia? Spain P6 shows Spanish Conquistador & Sapphire (as well as what looks like Florida which was discovered by the Spaniard Ponce de Leon at a place called St Augustine) I had trouble with the LotJ at first, but when I started getting more into it, people seemed not to perk up to its application. Fox, and anyone else, is there any other supporting notions out there that lead people in this direction or is everyone waffling on the idea and decidedly against the idea that anything outside the verse and image may be applicable? Also, not having my book handy at the moment, I wonder if fox injected the word "Crete" in the above or was that a quote from the book. I recall the Hellas references but not the "Hellas/Crete". It seems to me the "Goodness First" idea might get some traction if I study the book further and think on Cleveland as a model for how other locations work. Im referrering to the possibility that First Lady "Crete" Garfield was a big clue to getting "warmer" to the multiple country themed Cultural Gardens near the Garfield tomb.

I don't think the LOJ are the key to cracking this puzzle. They may offer some neat insight on the "back end" when we have the solve, but I don't think that we're suddenly going to go "OHHHH" based on anything in the LOJ.

Could be all in your approach. It may be useful if you appreciate that line of inquiry, but not necessary. Saying its applicable on the back end is silly. If its perceivable, applicable by any notion to the proximity of a casque relevant to that jewel/culture and the particular words used in the LotJ, then it isnt just an afterthought...its an implicit design strategy.

The clue is Hesperides. Garden of...

A single data point is nothing. Considering the Grant Park is not particularly Irish I find it hard to believe that SOMETIMES the LOJ points to the city, SOMETIMES it points to the park. It's very possible that the LOJ points to the city, but with a few exceptions we know the cities. One of the things I've always felt strongly about is that if the clue works differently for different poems, you're likely reaching for a connection. Also recall that the Cleveland location was suggested by JJP (it's the only one he's admitted to watching while buried), who did not write the LOJ or likely have anything to do with it. edit: I think there are a lot of things about these hunts that make sense "on the back end" once we know the solution. We're learning more about the Cleveland solve even now, 10 years later. OK, so it's just the image of a window that we missed, but still! edit: as has always been discussed, the "cultural" connection to each city is very weak. Boston is Irish more than anything, why is the Irish one in Chicago? etc.

Yeah, those cultural connections seem to be a bit sideways. My thought on LotJ is that it is mostly relevant as a hint to point of placement and not a general clue to city or a necessity for culture matching. There are visuals clues in the image to help you with that. Cleveland uses bound, and cherish to form a sense of looking for a dig area that is like an object up on a mantel: bounded in a rectangle plot of dirt in a raised bed (cherished...put up on a pedestal or mantel). There is room to look into this further. Lets not abandon the possibility so pessimistic. I have a pretty interesting list, heavily edited and growing. Shall I PM it to anyone?

On the topic of BP choosing a location...what do you guys (and gals) think? Probably safe to assume that BP knew what cities he was burying a casque before he got there, right? What about the actual park/patch of land that he was going to bury it? Do you think he knew what park (or area) he was going to bury before he got to the cities, or do you think he found the best park based on the theme/fit of the hunt once he got to each city?

I wouldn't be surprised if he had everything planned out ahead of time, mostly because what I've noticed (and I think I typed yesterday above) is that there are what appear to be intentional red herrings in every one, both in the verses and paintings, actually. I think it would be very difficult to arrive at a city, pick a spot, then hope you can write clues that fit multiple locations on purpose. That's just a guess, as I've imagined doing a hunt of my own like this someday while scoping out Boston. But as usual it's just speculation.

I think he planned to some extent and then made excellent observations that fit his style wanting each location to have a somewhat unique feel and method of placement.

Xieish wrote:: I wouldn't be surprised if he had everything planned out ahead of time, mostly because what I've noticed (and I think I typed yesterday above) is that there are what appear to be intentional red herrings in every one, both in the verses and paintings, actually. I think it would be very difficult to arrive at a city, pick a spot, then hope you can write clues that fit multiple locations on purpose. That's just a guess, as I've imagined doing a hunt of my own like this someday while scoping out Boston. But as usual it's just speculation. Yeah I honestly wouldn't be surprised either...but... I'm not really on-board with the whole red herring idea...him saying that he expected these to be solved within a few months or whatever seems like it wouldn't be that complex of a puzzle/hunt. I think these are for the most part straightforward, it's just finding the area of city that the verse and image clues match. I think he would have some ideas of where to look before he got to the cities, but once he got there he either went on tours or grabbed tourist info (provided he didn't have a great knowledge of any given city he was visiting). I really don't see him having the specific site picked out before getting there because there is so much in the local clues that lead to the dig site that he would not have known. Clues that you develop while walking and looking around actually being there. On top of that, he couldn't have researched things like the "fence and fixture" that were in Grant Park-he would have had to have been there to know that was there to make clues to that park. My take anyway. Thoughts?

I believe I mentioned this after Siskel and I met with BP to get the jewel. BP said that he would have a general idea of what he wanted to do before he got to the city, and then did more detailed research once he got there. As tjgrey just pointed out, certain things hidden in the picture you just could not get from another city, without the internet and google maps. The fence and fixture, the helmet window, and many other images which we can now see via the internet but could not see 30 years ago.

His process may have evolved after establishing his easiest to find casques. His method may have included a true red herring only to distinguish the hardest puzzles.

I'm with tjgrey on this one, regarding the "red herrings." Can someone please list a few examples? It was my theory that every word of every line is relevant, and every item in every Image. For example, in Cleveland, the L and the bell seem to point to "Liberty Bell" and Philly. I suppose you could call that a "red herring," but a "red herring" is a clue which is later deemed irrelevant. In this case, it refers to Liberty Blvd. - so it's just a "tricky clue." Similarly, in the Chicage verse, "Congress" is mentioned, but instead of Washington DC, it is referring to a street name.

I agree with that mostly whole cloth. I believe that he knew generally where he wanted to bury them, or had a few possible sites picked out (by sites I mean areas or parks, not like the actual physical dig spot). I wouldn't be surprised if he had a start location in mind, and a few historic points to hit along the way. But then I think he just walked it and took pictures of things that didn't appear transient (though some of them turned out to be, especially over decades . Once in the park he looked for a good spot to dig I think he walked around with a Polaroid camera and took photos along the way, then decided which ones were good clues & sent them to JJP. (edit: For fun, I have a neat pet boston theory that ties into this. I can't prove it, it's just a little pet theory of mine) I have another theory about the site that points to him knowing ahead of time, and I'm not being coy, it's just far too early to post anything. I'm trying to collect my evidence and thoughts and self-falsify. If I get to a point where it feels like I may have something I'll post up what I've got. It's a bit of a stretch, but it is falsifiable or not, I just need to sit down and do the research and collect my thoughts. It's in the "possibly crazy theory" stage right now. I think something that's important: To some degree we need to call out the Cleveland hunt when discussing methodology. JJP has said that he suggested the spot & was there during the burial, so we know BP had an idea going in - likely an exact spot, or close, and it may not fit the other patterns. It may, but we need to think about it in context.

Egbert wrote:: I'm with tjgrey on this one, regarding the "red herrings." Can someone please list a few examples? It was my theory that every word of every line is relevant, and every item in every Image. For example, in Cleveland, the L and the bell seem to point to "Liberty Bell" and Philly. I suppose you could call that a "red herring," but a "red herring" is a clue which is later deemed irrelevant. Absolutely Eg. First thing I think of is a clue that is mis-leading when I think of a red herring and I don't think that would have been his intent.

Xieish wrote:: I think something that's important: To some degree we need to call out the Cleveland hunt when discussing methodology. JJP has said that he suggested the spot & was there during the burial, so we know BP had an idea going in - likely an exact spot, or close, and it may not fit the other patterns. It may, but we need to think about it in context. JJP suggesting that spot could have (probably?) just been that spot? Wasn't JJP from Cleveland? (I just don't think it would have been like this case for all of the locations.) So he would have known more of the local cultural parks, gardens, etc in the area...I would imagine BP talking to him, explaining his hunt, how it had cultural/immigration themes, and JJP coming back, saying he knew a spot. Basically BP had a man on the ground in that particular location, like he may have been his own expertise for the NY casque. I know none of this for sure, just speculation...there IS a method to my madness

Red herrings play with our asumptions, here are some ideas: Image 12 red herring: looks like statue of liberty 1) primary assumption is NY, 2) possible intention: lesser known statue of liberty at Alki Point near Seattle for RusALKI themed puzzle. Image 9 red herring: lamp leg of transcontinental railroad builder 1) assume a location near his home, 2) or consider a miniature train modeled after the train that first made the trip to Canadas west coast.

erexere wrote:: His process may have evolved after establishing his easiest to find casques. His method may have included a true red herring only to distinguish the hardest puzzles. I DO actually think that his puzzles "evolved" as he progressed. Look at the clues, how the structure of the verses work. They seem to go more vague than the two solved, and IMO, the Houston and FOY ones. As far as red herrings and multitude of layers and associations, I just don't believe that's the way this was set up. But then again, I don't have a casque on my mantel either

Mmm I don't mean those types of red herrings. I just mean clues that could apply to multiple locations. The way you know you are at the right location is: if it's a verse clue there will be a direct image match, and if it's a direct image match it should be nearby to a verse clue. Two image matches in a row also confirms you're on the right path. For example the lamp leg in Montreal is not at all a "red herring" by my means. The statue of liberty being "obvious" but not actually being the Statue of Liberty would be a better example. Another one IMO is the map of the Observatory area of Hermann Park, I don't think that map is anything important to finding the casque. At best, it's a confirmer for the park, but IMO it's a fake map inserted to throw people off the trail. It's too easy - anything that jumps out at you like that is too easy and designed to throw you off. If it was as simple as going "that looks like part of Hermann Park!" I think we'd have dug up more than 2 in 30 years. I don't think the statue of liberty refers to the one in Vegas or Seattle at all, just that it might not be at face value. Or in Boston the "In truth be free" leads people to Harvard by default - something that generates an "obvious" thought in your head but it's not that. I ask that you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and apply exere's type of red herrings to what I'm talking about. I just think that a lot of clues were designed to have 2 different possibilities and finding multiple clues along the same path is how you narrow it down.

Yeah, but dont confuse multilayered association with 100% metaphor when there are literal words, not play on words, linking a site or object to a definition. Many far reaching associations inhabited my posts awhile back, so many of you mightve failed to notice my own progression, so do try to forget what Ive said before so please give my new stuff a fresh look. this might not be the best example, but take a look at V10's first line, "In the shadow", while that can be attributed to anything at all in our Solar system...or to do with some specific "grey giant", I've found a famously known Native Tribes poet in Canada whom wrote a poem titled "In the Shadows". Perhaps thats just a coincidental coonection, but if you factor in a lot of interesting landmarks that may work with the verse and image including an early 80s collection of art and reference to Elek Imredy at the Maritime museum with the Gateway to the Northwest Passage sculpture sitting on its front lawn facing the park which contains just one grave memorial to that "In the Shadows" poet...oh this sentence is wonky...anyway Imredy sculpted the Girl in Wetsuit (modeled much like Mermaid of Copenhagen - Dutch Themed puzzle hint) which sits on a little isle dedicated by Douglas Brown. Ive never heard of these people before, but they have their place in that section of Canadas landscape. The miature train next to giant checkerboards really connects this puzzle for me especially with the LotJ describing shining and shifting could be relevant to the moving pieces of checkers and a successful capture, shinning as a successor winning move as pieces shift and jump over the board. The unique looking legeater lamp literally connects with the train makers home in Montreal but is also a strong symbol of a creature (predator) eating another creature (prey/game), quite like a checkerpiece taking an opponent piece out of the game.

I think any literary connections like that are likely to be Easter Eggs, and not necessary to dig up the casque. 30 years later they may play a role, however. I don't throw out anything you say at all, but I ask that in the middle of a discussion that you not muddy the issue. I'm not talking about red herrings in the same way you are, and would like some feedback on just the theories that I'm presenting. What happens (and has already happened) is that your unrelated post has now muddied what I was talking about into thinking about statues in Washington, when that isn't what I meant at all. I mean only within the context of the same city. I think the Gargoyle in 12 is another good example: You immediately think Chrysler building, but the first obvious thought is probably not it. If it was that easy why haven't we found enough images nearby to dig it up? I think some of the clues were chosen because they look similar enough to other things, and they will only be confirmed right by the nearby location of OTHER clues or a direct and obvious application to the verse. Another example is the turrets in Image 11 - they immediately make everyone think Trinity Church by the BPL (T&X as well) and I believe that's a "red herring" (I may just be using the wrong term) as they immediately make you jump to an obvious conclusion (in the right city, even!) but it's not the right one.

I know very well what a red herring is based on my experience from the Silver Key. The author of the hunt confirmed the site of Eugene, Oregon and I followed clues to Mt. Pisgah Arboretum. I never found the key and when the hunts 2yr experiation happened we learned that the key was hidden at Mt. Pisgah in North Carolina. Dude. Thats a red herring. You wanna use red herring to talk about double meanings, thats a little cloudy to me.

If you want to argue over the colloquial definition of "red herring" i'm happy to do it over PM but I think my idea has been made extremely clear. Please focus on the ideas presented and not whether or not my use of red herring is personally insulting because you know what red herrings are and I don't. It's a term, it may have been misused. I know it's the internet but please let it go, sub in whatever term you want. "Intentionally misleading clues that point you in an obvious but incorrect location" seems to fit "red herring" for me. I'm sorry you got duped by that crappy hunt. edit: "something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting." Seriously please I can't do pedantic grammar nitpicking on the internet anymore.

Red herring: st. louid is correct (the context: a response from Preiss about johann being wrong about a spot in the city of St. Louis) So St. Louis is correct, but in what way? Are we talking about a sovereign, a street, a cemetery in NO, or the city of St. Louis? Im not into this to insult or argue. We have both clarified our use of the term and the forum members can readily apply the apropriate meaning to each of our posts. Im not attempting to redefine your words as they are applied to your ideas. We are discussing different locations, points of view, methodology, etc. I dont think anything Ive said will confuse anyone as to what you are saying, apologies if that is the case. I'm mostly focused on tjgrey's idea at the moment.

Ah! I got it now...yeah, I just think of a red herring as being something intentionally misleading. I personally don't think that there are mis-leading clues, nor double clues. Maybe some of the Lincoln references and the Washington references. (There seems to be a lot of obelisks that come up in random parks that are explored...) I think the fine folks that established the majority of the theories about 10 years ago and did the groundwork were probably the closest in all of this. I think if some of the ones there weren't found they were likely gone or destroyed, (speaking of Houston, SF, and possibly Milwaukee). That's my view on it all. Others, like Roanoke, and FOY seem to be there...just maybe missed? Or not at the exact spot but in the right park...

FWIW I don't think it's in FOY park. I think that is exactly the type of "red herring" I'm talking about - but at the end of the day it's all going to come down to our personal feelings about the puzzles. I think that the CLOSE but not EXACT match of the Conquistador/Flag is telling, but I'm really just falling back on my feelings about how they work. The fact that it's not a picture Preiss took with a Polaroid but instead "similar to" or "inspired by" leads me to think it's meant to throw us off the trail. But as I said, with BP dead we'll never know for sure until we solve them all and take a step back. My crazy theory that I'm working out would back up my "It's not in FOY" park but that's useless, you can't confirm your own stuff like that

Xieish wrote:: FWIW I don't think it's in FOY park. I think that is exactly the type of "red herring" I'm talking about - but at the end of the day it's all going to come down to our personal feelings about the puzzles. I think that the CLOSE but not EXACT match of the Conquistador/Flag is telling, but I'm really just falling back on my feelings about how they work. The fact that it's not a picture Preiss took with a Polaroid but instead "similar to" or "inspired by" leads me to think it's meant to throw us off the trail. But as I said, with BP dead we'll never know for sure until we solve them all and take a step back. My crazy theory that I'm working out would back up my "It's not in FOY" park but that's useless, you can't confirm your own stuff like that I love the FOY theory...I think it's just a matter of pinpointing... Yeah, throw it out there to the sharks! If it stands up, it's worth it! I'm working a few things I found in Chucktown, and I'll post it when I put the pieces together and it makes sense in something readable...I want to see what some people think.

erexere wrote:: Yeah, but dont confuse multilayered association with 100% metaphor when there are literal words, not play on words, linking a site or object to a definition. Many far reaching associations inhabited my posts awhile back, so many of you mightve failed to notice my own progression, so do try to forget what Ive said before so please give my new stuff a fresh look. this might not be the best example, but take a look at V10's first line, "In the shadow", while that can be attributed to anything at all in our Solar system...or to do with some specific "grey giant", I've found a famously known Native Tribes poet in Canada whom wrote a poem titled "In the Shadows". Perhaps thats just a coincidental coonection, but if you factor in a lot of interesting landmarks that may work with the verse and image including an early 80s collection of art and reference to Elek Imredy at the Maritime museum with the Gateway to the Northwest Passage sculpture sitting on its front lawn facing the park which contains just one grave memorial to that "In the Shadows" poet...oh this sentence is wonky...anyway Imredy sculpted the Girl in Wetsuit (modeled much like Mermaid of Copenhagen - Dutch Themed puzzle hint) which sits on a little isle dedicated by Douglas Brown. Ive never heard of these people before, but they have their place in that section of Canadas landscape. The miature train next to giant checkerboards really connects this puzzle for me especially with the LotJ describing shining and shifting could be relevant to the moving pieces of checkers and a successful capture, shinning as a successor winning move as pieces shift and jump over the board. The unique looking legeater lamp literally connects with the train makers home in Montreal but is also a strong symbol of a creature (predator) eating another creature (prey/game), quite like a checkerpiece taking an opponent piece out of the game. I should add that image 9 looks to contain two runic symbols in the "X" shaped box that may be the initials of the poet: P J, Pauline Johnson. So many really tangible clues in Vancouver B.C., we have yet to see anything substantial in the Golden Mile of Montreal or NY depending on which verse/image combo considered. We know Preiss uses name initials in Verse, is this the only case we might know of for initials in an image?

Back to the methodology...(this was where I was going with my original question) have walking tours come up (I can't remember)? Does anyone think that BP would have dropped into a city and gone on a walking tour? I know if I were looking for local customs/history/happenings new in a city, I would hit the local visitor's centers and (probably) look into local tours. I know we did here when we moved to Charleston. All the basic, on-the-surface highlights of history right there as you ride. Best I figure, BP has the list of immigration themes and likely the cities figured out. He's definitely researched parts of each, but maybe does, maybe doesn't, have a specific spot to bury a casque, so he finds local information once arriving. From there, he fills in the "holes" of what he knows about the city and any (remaining) clues he needs to finish the verse for the current city. Then, photos are taken while there. Both of major (identifying) landmarks, and takes some from the actual dig site and park.

Back to the methodology ...(this was where I was going with my original question) have walking tours come up (I can't remember)? Does anyone think that BP would have dropped into a city and gone on a walking tour? I know if I were looking for local customs/history/happenings new in a city, I would hit the local visitor's centers and (probably) look into local tours. I know we did here when we moved to Charleston. All the basic, on-the-surface highlights of history right there as you ride. Best I figure, BP has the list of immigration themes and likely the cities figured out. He's definitely researched parts of each, but maybe does, maybe doesn't, have a specific spot to bury a casque, so he finds local information once arriving. From there, he fills in the "holes" of what he knows about the city and any (remaining) clues he needs to finish the verse for the current city. Then, photos are taken while there. Both of major (identifying) landmarks, and takes some from the actual dig site and park.

tjgrey wrote:: Back to the methodology ...(this was where I was going with my original question) have walking tours come up (I can't remember)? Does anyone think that BP would have dropped into a city and gone on a walking tour? I know if I were looking for local customs/history/happenings new in a city, I would hit the local visitor's centers and (probably) look into local tours. I know we did here when we moved to Charleston. All the basic, on-the-surface highlights of history right there as you ride. Best I figure, BP has the list of immigration themes and likely the cities figured out. He's definitely researched parts of each, but maybe does, maybe doesn't, have a specific spot to bury a casque, so he finds local information once arriving. From there, he fills in the "holes" of what he knows about the city and any (remaining) clues he needs to finish the verse for the current city. Then, photos are taken while there. Both of major (identifying) landmarks, and takes some from the actual dig site and park. Yes I just found a walking tour on Melville: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4186&p=128759&hilit=tour#p128759 I was going to follow it using Streetview. Tourist leaflets are another item to consider. I found one for Elizabethan Gardens and Prospect Park using Google Images searching for maps, layout, plans, etc

tjgrey wrote:: Back to the methodology...(this was where I was going with my original question) have walking tours come up (I can't remember)? Does anyone think that BP would have dropped into a city and gone on a walking tour? I know if I were looking for local customs/history/happenings new in a city, I would hit the local visitor's centers and (probably) look into local tours. I know we did here when we moved to Charleston. All the basic, on-the-surface highlights of history right there as you ride. Best I figure, BP has the list of immigration themes and likely the cities figured out. He's definitely researched parts of each, but maybe does, maybe doesn't, have a specific spot to bury a casque, so he finds local information once arriving. From there, he fills in the "holes" of what he knows about the city and any (remaining) clues he needs to finish the verse for the current city. Then, photos are taken while there. Both of major (identifying) landmarks, and takes some from the actual dig site and park. Yes I just found a walking tour on Melville: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4186&p=128759&hilit=tour#p128759 I was going to follow it using Streetview. Tourist leaflets are another item to consider. I found one for Elizabethan Gardens and Prospect Park using Google Images searching for maps, layout, plans, etc

I've always liked the idea of guidebooks or tourist info being relevant. Not to the point of one of the clues just being a walking tour, but I've always assumed that in 1980-81 when he was researching & burying tourist and guidebooks were the #1 source for info. There was no Trip Advisor or anything like that. I wish there were an easy way to access that info though - maybe local libraries? I've had enough trouble trying to find old road maps/aerial maps.

wk wrote:: Yes I just found a walking tour on Melville: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4186&p=128759&hilit=tour#p128759 I was going to follow it using Streetview. Tourist leaflets are another item to consider. I found one for Elizabethan Gardens and Prospect Park using Google Images searching for maps, layout, plans, etc Thanks wk-that's a great idea! I'd like to see where the Charleston Slave/Freedom Tours lead...or if any were around 30 years ago. Even then, the history hasn't changed, so it's likely that the tours are pretty much the same...I might have to take one of these and see what they say. hxxp://palmettotours.com/charleston-sla ... -tour.html hxxp://www.charlestonwalks.com/new_slavery&freedom.html

Elizabethan Gardens has an audio and visual tour on its website. click on take a tour. hxxp://elizabethangardens.org/

I believe the visual size of a clue and its nearness to the center of the painting are important factors. The fence in Chicago's Grant Park is good size relatively speaking. The casque found very close by the fence. The Cleveland columns are good size but are on the bottom edge. The monolithic wall is very recognizable, good sized and near the center; casque found right next to wall. Image 10, very large shape in cloak would seem to indicate the casque is near that visual. Preferably this clue is rightside up. If this is intended as a much harder puzzle, rotation and/or mirroring might be a good way to increase difficulty.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Well, I have also been looking for this because I haven't been convinced about the Olmsted significance (that dude was everywhere). I've been looking at BP making stops at the local art museums, which Chicago seemed to point out, and I've had some great success. I haven't shared this before because I have been working on it's significance. I'll let you all find others (I'll share a couple good ones, IMO), but here's four to peak your interest... The Chicago image utilized the Great Lakes Fountain. The Cleveland image utilized the Man and Horse Armour. The Charleston image utilized the Persephone Fountain. The Boston image utilized the Horus Falcon (Horace ). Interestingly, BP also seemed to rely on a work of art featured in some museums, too. hxxp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4058/461 ... 1c43_o.jpg

I like the clean comparison on the legs. Also, I'm more inclined to think about his methods in association with the cultural theme. Could be there's a major cultural connection given a boost by some other cultural influences which are hinted at by some means in either the supplemental text or in the image/verse. I think he attempts to explain the choice of setting by some relationship that particular Fair Folk had when they fell in love with a particular spot. I'm at a loss to elaborate on the blendings, though.

erexere wrote:: I like the clean comparison on the legs. ... and the arms, and the head looking down, and the table it stands upon...

In this image, Soloman Juneau is in a similar position to the Juggler in Image 10 The images do not match up perfect, however it's as close as a match as your Cleveland example. This statue is within 200 yards of the Milwaukee art museum. Coincidence?

I don't think so. It appears that a real-life statue is used and modified just slightly enough to suit another purpose. However, the modifications always seem to be quite small (i.e., they do not the diminish the original).

Many people have made comparisons to this statue plaque and image 10, I think White Rabbit has a whole webpage on it actually. You feel it's just a coincidence then? It is a similar pose, right hand in the same position, head looking the same way...the background on the plaque on the statue also matches the image background color wise, you could say it's coincidence but I can't be sure...it might just be another city indicator. I did not check to see if the plaque is a reproduction of a painting in the art museum or the public museum.

decibalnyc wrote:: ...You feel it's just a coincidence then? I I said I DIDN'T think it was just coincidence.

Ok so if I am reading you right, you feel there was some sort of "routine" he had for all of these...maybe a research routine on each city that possibly was a starting point for the images. I would agree that he had to have some way to start, save an extensive personal knowledge of each city. That makes a lot of sense. Do you think there was any deeper meaning to it, or do you think he just needed to start somewhere so he had a routine of checking out a few museums and the library in every town? Also on a separate note...I was having a discussion with a friend and the topic of Chicago came up. Does anyone know how the verse for Chicago was matched up with the image? I thought about this, and there is really nothing in that verse that screams Chicago. I would be curious if Tenbythirteen would share the story of how he determined that Verse 12 went with image 5.

No, I am not proposing there was a routine, I am just pointing out that there seems to be prominent works of art from the local museums in many of the images. This makes sense, IMO, not because the museum helped BP choose a spot or a starting point, but because people use to visit the local museum when they visited a city. Especially scholars. It used to be the fun thing to do before the internets. Perhaps the inclusion is used in only some puzzles, maybe all. It's not necessarily a proposition of method.

Do you think that when he was designing the quest as a whole, he premeditated this? There perhaps would be people who would go after multiple cities. Upon finding the city in the image, they would need to figure out the verse. In 1982 you would need to visit a library to find out more about the city to try and attribute it to the verse. Also I would buy into the museum theory. Proximity of art museums to treasure grounds maybe an interesting thing to look into. I am very curious as to how he found his starting points for these cities. It might help to find some methodology. What can we attribute to New Orleans in this fashion? If we can say it is at least somewhere in Lafayette Park, does anything in the image relate to a museum near that park?

decibalnyc wrote:: What can we attribute to New Orleans in this fashion? If we can say it is at least somewhere in Lafayette Park, does anything in the image relate to a museum near that park? I threw out a theory a while back showing the clues leading to the Dueling Oak, right beside NOMA.

I liked that theory.

decibalnyc wrote:: ... I would buy into the museum theory. Proximity of art museums to treasure grounds maybe an interesting thing to look into. Have you looked into it? They are all VERY close to a proposed theory - typically on the same road. The only ones that don't fit this are St. Augustine and Manteo, both of which seem to be museums within themselves.

I've been knee deep in old photos for Image 10, and work is still pretty busy...I think you're on to something about the museums tho, just from a logical standpoint it makes a lot of sense. I would guess college campuses also, it seems this book was meant for the 18-25 age demographic.

You ALL have done a wonderful job. I am new and still trying to sort through what has been posted before. I don't want to step on any toes nor offend anyone, but you need to go back to the very beginning. Mr. Preiss taught Elementary History. He would have picked a historical time and matched it to the site. Bryron Preiss - April 11, 1953 - July 9, 2005 - 52 years old - lived in East Hampton NY - • Native of Brooklyn NY - Wife Sandi Mendelson, daughters Karah and Blaire • Graduated Magna Cum Laude University of Pennsykvannia in 1972, Masters earned at Stanford • Elementary school teacher, 1971 • 1974, founded Byron Preiss Visual Publications • Preiss Publication filed for bankruptcy in 2006 • Mr. Preiss scouted locations, devised clues and buried the treasures himself. • Preiss was quoted, " I thought the treasure hunt was going to be too easy". Sunday magazine • Paintings commissioned 1981 - John Jude Palencar ( Where are the original paintings?) Image 2 is Charleston - April - diamond - slave / What happened, in April / in Charleston / regarding slaves? "First shot Fired"( April 12, 1861), Civil War, Fort Sumter, to free the slaves. Image shows Fort Sumter tied to a tree / Linking it to something else / tree limb matches hwy 703 which leads to Sullivan Island where Fort Moultrie is. Citadel Cadets manned that station and it is debated that they actually fired the "First Shot", at a supply ship, Star of the West, to prevent supplies reaching Fort Sumter. I have gone trough other stuff and other paintings but am too tired to try and figure out how to post it all. Still Trying. I have a meeting with the Citadel to, hopefully, confirm clues and verify if Mr. Preiss requested burial there.

don't forget that he also won a Grammy in 1985 and wrote a book called Dragonworld which was made into a Commodore64 video game where you had to (you guessed it) walk around and collect the Dragon Stones. Seems like the story in "The Secret" is a take off of The Hobbit as well...all of these guys seemed to be way into Tolken...wouldn't be surprised if there is Tolken references in the verses somewhere Obit in the Times- hxxp://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/11/nyreg ... .html?_r=0

Maybe I am showing my age...but I played that Dragonworld video game on my C64 when I was a kid :-)

I also think there is some kind of pattern going on with the origin of the fair folk for the specific treasure and some kind of cultural garden or park with strong cultural references to that origin. Can we at least find out if all of the cities contain some kind of big public garden, and are they near anything related to the image or verse so far?

By the way here is the entire walk through of the Dragonworld video game. This was developed by BP and released in 1984 RIGHT AFTER he did The Secret. From what I remember in the game you basically walk around on quests to find the "dragonstones" sound familliar. There is an entire list of commands included here as well as the story, maybe you could find similarities in the story line, or matches to certain verse words and commands in the game...anyways it's something to look into the madness of Byron Preiss hxxp://www.gamefaqs.com/c64/569088-drag ... faqs/45113

And if you still have a C64, you can download the actual game from here... hxxp://www.gb64.com/game.php?id=13018 I would love to play this BTW...I played it when I was a kid but had no idea about the book then. If anyone knows how I could get the game in a playable mode without finding a C64 that would be awesome!

This is not meant to be a criticism...more of an observation.... There are countless instances of all of us saying things like "BP wouldn't do that" or "That's not what BP intended," "BP Didn't know his tree's" etc... Lets review what we do know about BP... He was a teacher with a degree He ran a business He was an author, editor, and publisher He was a traveler He won a Grammy He developed a video game He made a treasure hunt Probably a lot more than that as well I don't think that any of us have the wisdom to comment on BP's thoughts, style, or methods. I would trust Siskel and Eg's comments about BP as they actually met the guy...but let's not let our personal opinion of what he may or may not have thought or done cloud our research..thats all.

I have reason to believe BP had used a standard magnetic compass on the occasions where he needed to pace long distances and especially when he refers to directions. Its vitally important to recognize the magnetic declination in play at the time of placement. He uses maps in simple ways to incorporate fairly characteristic lines for JJP, such as the Cleveland Garden's curvy boundary or GGP and the outlines of other SF shores along the bay, and the Charleston area. I think it may be fruitful to go ahead and purchase those vintage maps from 1976-1980 and look at whats unique about some landscapes. Look for interesting boundaries, major rivers, interesting park shapes. Maybe something new can be gleaned. I feel like googlemaps and even the historic aerials may be misleading despite their awesome accuracy. Lets go old school and look at the basic materials available at the time of the book's printing.

It is a given that BP gave area photos to JJ Palencar to be used in the creation of his 12 paintings. JJ Palencar has said that he was not told the locations of the casques (except for Cleveland, where he was actually with BP at the time of the casque burial.) So if Palencar was not told where the casques were buried... if he were just given photos of the area to incorporate into artwork....How do we know which objects were actually seen NEAR the casque location? What determined the importance of a photo image when Palencar was putting together his artwork? I think that the VERSES must be the most important things that lead to the casque locations, unless BP wrote on the back of a photo, "Be sure to use this prominently in your painting." Yes??

Totally Yes.

Unknown: It is a given that BP gave area photos to JJ Palencar to be used in the creation of his 12 paintings. Just my opinion, but I believe that Palencar knows (or knew at one time; it's been 30+ years after all) a whole lot more about these puzzles than he lets on when asked about it. There are just too many common elements in the images for me to believe that there wasn't significant collaboration between him and Preiss on their design and execution. There is no doubt in my mind that if he was the unscrupulous sort, he had all the information he needed to dig up each and every casque if he was so inclined, and could probably still find a few, even after all this time. His reticence, and his commitment to keeping Preiss' confidences long after it ceased to matter, suggests that he is the farthest thing from that. And for that, he has my utmost respect.

animal painter wrote:: ie I think that the VERSES must be the most important things that lead to the casque locations, unless BP wrote on the back of a photo, "Be sure to use this prominently in your painting." Yes?? I have been hammering on this point for years. My belief has long been that, for the most part, the images were useless except for the coordinates. The internet has mucked it up even further because we can find SOOOOO many relations to the images. Because BP was the only one that knew the locations, he was also the only one that could utilize consistency, meaning consistency could only be used in the verses. So, the verses MUST contain the real direction while the images are complementary, not necessary. This is why we see (and believe) that solves can be had without the understanding of the entire image. JJP had nothing to go on when making the images. But then... we see consistent use of coordinates hidden in the images, and the use of cultures and flowers and months and culture and clockss. So, we know that JJP was given [i]some [/i] direction to his paintings and clue usage... How much? With BP's unfortunate death, it seems to be an eternal case of the chicken and the egg.

Unknown: So, we know that JJP was given some direction to his paintings and clue usage... How much? Methinks more than he has ever let on. If you want to keep a secret, the best way to do it is to convince yourself that the lie is, in fact, the truth. Palencar says he doesn't know, and that he never did. It's the lie that preserves the greater truth in my opinion.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Just my opinion, but I believe that Palencar knows (or knew at one time; it's been 30+ years after all) a whole lot more about these puzzles than he lets on when asked about it. There are just too many common elements in the images for me to believe that there wasn't significant collaboration between him and Preiss on their design and execution. There is no doubt in my mind that if he was the unscrupulous sort, he had all the information he needed to dig up each and every casque if he was so inclined, and could probably still find a few, even after all this time. His reticence, and his commitment to keeping Preiss' confidences long after it ceased to matter, suggests that he is the farthest thing from that. And for that, he has my utmost respect. Amen. I agree with all of that.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Methinks more than he has ever let on. If you want to keep a secret, the best way to do it is to convince yourself that the lie is, in fact, the truth. Palencar says he doesn't know, and that he never did. It's the lie that preserves the greater truth in my opinion. hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn_PSJsl0LQ

BP is not the only one who knows the hiding places...Palencar was there for the Cleveland casque, and BP had a lookout for each burial.

I've had many assessments of theme (guesses) associated with each image. I've recently come to believe JJP really was in the dark and very limited in any creative input. His task was to preserve a set of specific instructions. Preiss has 100% creative control, like a play writer or director, he assembled the dramatis personae and setting with a particular goal in mind: 1) what place would each type of Fair Folk choose to best suit a gem location?, 2) how can a specific method for location be conveyed?. We've all reverse or mock engineered many possibilities. Its a big challenge tracking what BP had in mind and what resources we are limited to exploring given the date of his plot. I think he didn't develop all that preamble (the emmigration, story, LotJ) for nothing. He fully involved specific Fair Folk ideas to develop 12 separate methodologies. Dwarves will hide their jewels according to their masonry skills (just exploring an example), Gnomes will find their best gardens, Elves their best trees, Giants find that which reminds them of thunder and lightning, African tree spirits love the heart of wood and the storage of water, Nymphs love columns and springs, the Hadas love the exploration of sea and land, the Rusalki like the rain and rainbows, the Dragon is perhaps best associated to a beast from Hell, and the Djinn would be found close to their topper and bottle... just exploring some origins from which themes may explain BPs process. The second task is how to locate something. A T or X or I or the center of a circle...the highest or lowest point in the landscape, centered between 2 or more points, the middle of a V, a specific count on a grid like a wall of bricks or a copse of trees, or beneath a specific overhead object, or next to something immediately at its base. I love the possibilities. I believe there are hints in each puzzle that bring each seeker to these conclusions.

There's something odd about the Chinese. On P7 it's explained that: "Thus, we are told, did the First Age of the Old World come to an end: with the departure of Twelve Nations of Fairy." However, "...no sooner had the Twelve established themselves in the New World, than they were joined there by a Thirteenth. On the first morning of the first spring day...". Thus appear the Chinese, with their dragon. The verse on P32 reads: "The First Age ended; the New Age began". Did the new age, then, begin with the Chinese...? The Chinese arrive on "the first morning of the first spring day". But the Chinese spring is different from the European one, being the start of the Chinese New Year in Jan or Feb. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_New_Year We are told that: "In our land and in our time , the Fair People and their treasures yet wait to be discovered." We've seen how numbers resembling dates tie in with lat/long in images like Cleveland, but perhaps there are other date-related clues. The Chinese years include animals like the dragon, dog and horse which all appear in the images. Each animal recurs on a fixed 12-year cycle. For instance, the New Orleans image includes what looks like a chessboard, with an animal head, which would logically be a horse. The clock includes 19 and 90. Although the book was published in 1982, 1990 would always be fixed as a Year of the Horse. Maybe the images with these animals could tie in with a relevant year, eg by a dated statue/plaque/event.

WR, I see what you're saying. It's intriguing to think about. Something about the numbers doesn't appear to add up. Important to note is p10 gives us 48 Fair Folk of the old world, grouped into 13 general regions and then the 4 from the Orient, which includes the Dragon gives us a total of 52...(enough to make a deck of cards eh?). We know from the LotJ that the Dragon brings the pearl, and the other old types of Fairy bring us 11 jewels and then 12 weird wrought casques from the Viking Elves. How did the pearl find it's way into an Elven casque? I imagine the Dragon's pearl didn't wander all over the new world with the Indian tribes. It seems like it just arrived in the SF area and one of the Viking Elves either had an empty casque handy or they crafted a box right then and there when the 4 strangest of the Shining Ones reached the Pacific Ocean after their long trek west. In other words, various Fair Folk and 8 jewels w/ casques found their secret locations before the small group of Fair Folk carrying 3 remaining jewels made it to the Pacific Ocean beaches. One of the Elven smiths fell in love with the area now known as San Francisco and met the Chinese and their Dragon's pearl. The remaining 3 jewels and casques then traveled north into the Nootka lands, hence we're told the story by the Nootka ancestor. As far as using the Chinese calendar to apply to other locations, I don't see it working that way in Cleveland or Chicago. What I see is something unique in each image that sets a thematic component to that type of Fairy, Chicago: giant wearing a hat, which is actually a castle, which has lots of metal ornaments and lightning rods attached to the spires. The CELTIC theme seems to connect loosely and anagrammically to things related to ELECTRICTY (see letters E L C T I C may be pulled out to spell CELTIC). Cleveland: centaur holding a cup, actually shaped like an Italian fountain, and the casque was found in neigbhoring Greek garden between two cups, connecting the aquamarine (aqua- water -marine) to a watery themed Nymph hiding spot. Each of the other visual puzzles holds a thematic key that will suit its primary Fairy host. Milwaukee's Dwarves seem to like the circus performer juggling (actually rotating) various objects and balls. In that, there's a theme. I believe it's largely focused on rotunda, or circular and domelike structures. Spotting these connecting themes seem like the best way to conduct this hunt.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: The Chinese arrive on "the first morning of the first spring day". But the Chinese spring is different from the European one, being the start of the Chinese New Year in Jan or Feb. Spring is a season, seasons are based on latitude not calendar date. Chinese spring is identical to European spring. New years is an arbitrary date placed in an arbitrary calendar. Your Eurocentrism, is showing

One wonders if the Viking elves also wrought the plexiglass cubes to protect each casque.

FB, I had expected that by now your avatar would have doffed his Santa hat and donned sunglasses! (Although it may still be chilly by you...It was 37 degrees this morning in Milwaukee ) AP

I'm still feeling festive. And if my avatar were to wear sunglasses, you wouldn't be able to tell.

Pairing birthstones to cultures seems like the first thing Preiss had to work out. Turquoise for France...hmmm. Im not a French speaker, but the name of that stone brings me to think two words: Turk and Bourgeois...

Could it be that pacing to each location is a strong design feature for the puzzles, even though the word "paces" itself isn't always used? I figure all it takes is a strong focal point for the puzzle, followed by a direction and distance away from that spot. Just now I'm trying out the idea of pacing 24 steps away from the Atropos Key sculpture in Houston as the result of a verse line riddle "In December night". I think the Milwaukee focus is the Kosciuszko equestrian statue. If I were to venture a guess, I'd say 3 paces away from the monument given the strong association to the number 3 with several parts of the verse.

I recently found supporting evidence of the notion that pacing can be implied. Verse 2 says "fifteen rows..." and "in the middle of twenty-one", and neither says the word 'paces'. Paces are normally in a straight line and count off some number of steps in a row. "15 rows down to the ground" seems open to such interpretation and so 15 paces in a row down to the ground makes sense, especially if there is a stone landing that steps down to the grass. (See Basin St.).

The acrostic for Keats seems to be a good justification for the discovery of SELOY in verse 9. I wonder if the juggler in image 10 is a way to justify looking for an anagram.

Sign references, confirmed and possible: "Where M and B are set in stone" "Socrates, Pindar, Apelles" "The first chapter" "Shell, limestone, silver, salt" "With wind rose" SELOY acrostic "Dark forest" "In July and August" "By dauntless and inconquerable" "If Thucydides is / North of Xenophon" "Near this site" *************************************************************************** This looks like a popular type of clue. These can be short, inconsequential phrases, often on their own line. Worth looking for more! I'm going to try Googling for "Not far away" inscription etc...

WhiteRabbit wrote:: This looks like a popular type of clue. These can be short, inconsequential phrases, often on their own line. Worth looking for more! I'm going to try Googling for "Not far away" inscription etc... While the puzzle could be designed in such a way, isn't this as good as being random? Aren't you picking and choosing which line, or words to base your findings on in an unsystematic way? At the very least, wouldn't it be more method worthy to use something like the first line as a basis for inscription only clues? Chicago's "where M and B..." and verse 9's "the first chapter" would support that, but many of your other links to inscription fail to follow such a rule. If you mean to suggest that a specific type of clue is found anywhere in the verse, that's something considerably more wild. I've been thinking more about the Picture Path suggested by maltedfalcon. I've also been thinking about a geometric rule that uses the jewel location in the image in conjunction with at least one other shape in the image. These two ideas seem to merge into something of possible use in the cases of Chicago and Cleveland. That being the case, I think it may work for all puzzles. Here's Chicago . It's not perfect, because I really don't know the exact spot where it was recovered, but the concept involves drawing a line from the jewel to the nearest most confirmer and also drawing a line from the the jewel to the iconic shape in the image. Fortunately, we know that the fence arch is the nearest visual confirmer. We won't know that piece of information in the other puzzles, so things aren't going to unfold so quickly if this discovery turns out to be real. Chicago's historic water tower is the iconic shape. It's a giant structure that can be seen from a great distance. The line drawn from it to the jewel is longer than the line drawn from jewel to fence/arch. This illustrates how 10x13 is applied. The longer line is the 13. The iconic structure cooperates with the final line of verse. Hush = idiom: Pipe down!. The water tower is literally a vertical pipe. BP takes this large structure idea and distills it down to something small and fairfolky, hidden in plain sight. The electric light poles fit that description. I believe Cleveland does the same thing when it says "seek the columns". A type of column is a terminus. It represents a statue carving, like a bust, on top of a column. I think the line drawn from the terminal tower to the jewel coordinates with the line drawn from from jewel to the shape of the confirming wall-sketch centered between the columns. When standing at the columns and seeing the wall in the distance (side opposite the planter), that's a straight line. You find the backside of the wall by the verse by hopping up seven steps. Flip the image (mirror horizontal) over so that the Terminal Tower is right side up and notice how that line to jewel points to the lower right. This corresponds with the verse description of the bricks.

I still hope there might be progress on one of these by identifying some previously unrecognised feature. For instance, looking at this: The bottom left might be curving steps. The mushroom-like shape in the bottom right might be something. I suspect there might be a few tree drawings hidden in these, though I hope he didn't do too many trees. Another thing I'm wary of is that there are red herrings in the images. This is definite. The question is how misleading they get...whether it's just that they might include a picture of something from a different part of the city than where the casque is, or whether they could include false maps/coords.

I think the only red herrings in the image are the ones we create.

decibalnyc wrote:: ... the only red herrings in the image are the ones we create. +1

Happy to address the "red herrings" comment via PM. In particular, I'm bothered by Image 12, which has a couple of good image matches for NY but numbers which seem to bear no relation to the lat/long. AFAIK BP never confirmed NY. Something like LA or SF would be more plausible for the visible numbers, and have Russian Immigrant credentials. The Statue of Liberty is almost too easy compared to some of the "iconic images" - it depends whether BP thought this was one of his easy puzzles, or one of the difficult ones. It could be a clue for something else instead, like "Between two arms extended" or "Liberty Square" or "In truth be free" or something. Another random thought; Masquerade, published three years earlier, referenced the periodic table. Considering the comment about how the Fair Folk are "the natural children of those elements", I've wondered if there might some tie-ins. Eg, Image 1, Hg=Mercury=80. Image 3 has symbols reminiscent of Dalton's diagrams for Sulphur and Azote. Some verses begin with words like "In" (Indium) and "At" (Astatine). (Just brainstorming. We might have got all the main connections right, on the other hand there are some stumbling blocks that aren't easily explained simply by the felling of trees etc.)

Maybe NYC only has one (very obvious) number that puts it in NA (74) because it's the only major NA city on that longitude. You have Philadelphia and Ottawa at 73, Montreal and Albany at 75, but nothing at 74 except NYC and the Atlantic Ocean. I do admit, I'm confused by the 15s in the water and the shadow, but that's the only really obvious extra number there. We can force 3's into the wings or the flower, but neither of those look intentionally inserted as numbers, to my eye. Though I'm of the opinion that the 15s are really upside-down SIs (for Staten Island).

Frisco wrote:: Maybe NYC only has one (very obvious) number that puts it in NA (74)...We can force 3's into the wings or the flower, but neither of those look intentionally inserted as numbers. The flower could easily be 38. The 74 doesn't look much like 74 at all IMHO.

Hmm...it looks exactly like 74 to me. I didn't think that was disputable, at all, but I guess it is. If you don't think there's a 74 there, it could be in D.C., Sacramento, Louisville or St. Louis. But if that's the case, where's the other coordinate? I don't see a 77, 121, 85, or 90 anywhere.

As a general rule....If you can't get there by boat from the ocean (either one of them) it's not a correct city

Frisco wrote:: Hmm...it looks exactly like 74 to me. I didn't think that was disputable, at all. decibalnyc wrote:: As a general rule....If you can't get there by boat from the ocean (either one of them) it's not a correct city Well, I dunno. If you decided this image was NY and went hunting for a 74, I guess you could interpret that as a 74. I can see it as a 74 now, but it took a bit of practice. You can see anything in these if you look hard enough. Eg, here's 110/111 for SLC. ...or 25 and 80 for Miami, which has had Russian immigrants . The eagle/liberty/Russia matches are good, but I'm still inclined to keep an open mind on this image. That's just conjecture though. We don't know for sure. The intro has the Fair Folk traipsing all over the place.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Well, I dunno. If you decided this image was NY and went hunting for a 74, I guess you could interpret that as a 74. I can see it as a 74 now, but it took a bit of practice. You can see anything in these if you look hard enough. Eg, here's 110/111 for SLC. ...or 25 and 80 for Miami, which has had Russian immigrants . The eagle/liberty/Russia matches are good, but I'm still inclined to keep an open mind on this image. That's just conjecture though. We don't know for sure. The intro has the Fair Folk traipsing all over the place. While I have my personal views about whether or not there is a deliberate "74" in the image, I would argue that it is largely irrelevant. Just like Image 10 gives us the Milwaukee rebus, making hidden coordinates unnecessary, Image 12 gives us the face of The Statue of Liberty . I think it's easy to get lost in over analysis. To your initial statement, yes. I have indeed decided that Image 12 is NY based on that. It's not even necessary to go hunting for 74's, whether they exist or not. I see the new play that the dress may be Staten Island, but I'm not a big fan. To me, it looks like he just flipped Manhattan 180 degrees, which we have precedent for with the inverted Illinois in Image 5. I'm not seeing Image 12 possibly being anywhere outside of the general NYC area.

It's not so much the shape as it is the "S" and the "I" in the shadows of the dress. St. George (the name of both the neighborhood and the ferry terminal) could be another match if Gershwin is "Rhapsodic Man". Staten Island IS New York City, after all. And one of the few places you can see all the landmarks in Image 12 (Verrazano to the south and Bedloe (Liberty) and Ellis islands to the north). But I think we're getting more into P12/V10 territory than methodology at this point. (and for the record, that picture of the 74, White Rabbit, is far blurrier than I see it on my screen. I can see it crystal clear. Maybe a monitor upgrade is in order.)

Frisco wrote:: ...and for the record, that picture of the 74, White Rabbit, is far blurrier than I see it on my screen. I can see it crystal clear. Maybe a monitor upgrade is in order... Yeah, my bad, I think I've recently been browsing the Something Awful scans instead of the original Q4T ones...

Perhaps pointing out the obvious here. But this is another "thing that looks like something". It might be "BOS", in which case we should be keeping an eye out for other airport/IATA codes. (Boogieman suggested this back in 2007; just keeping the idea alive as they're not all straightforward. Eg, you could consider the "whirring sound" and look for the code of an NY heliport. If this is "BOS", the "B" also reveals that JJP sometimes indicates continuous shapes using unconnected lines.)

The problem we all face most is in wrestling with the Internet. It's a great tool, but when you imagine Byron Preiss with his feet on the ground, eyeballing landmarks that fit his fancy, he wasn't able to search all "statues grey giant" (or whatever) at once with a single click. He wouldnt know for sure what unintended consequential side-roads would be mistaken for his puzzle. He sure had a wide breadth of knowledge. How would we know about the acrostic grave neighboring Keats tomb while vacationing at FOY? Nobody has ever explained that. The first chapter, literally on the entrance to FOY, and then "writ in water" firmly lodges into peoples minds in a Spanish explorer setting as an aha moment, so lets look for SELOY?! I think thats just a mess to explain, but it exists because we can google search obscuritues. I learned from reading other publications by Byron Preiss that he was gifted at choosing his words wisely. He uses them in a blindingly creative way in these puzzles. Every time I look at these short lines, I see an impossibly intricate maze of possibilities. Its like hes mixing a long island ice tea for us, only we get each type of liquor separately and one at a time and only at the treasure ground do we find the tea and lemon. Then it hits you, bamm! This is a Long Island Ice Tea... I hate that legeater. Nobody would be interested in Montreal if it wasnt discovered. I could almost consider there was a legeater in St. Louis. I wish there was one in Vancouver... How do we decide what is the best candidate hook in any image? Lat and Long seemed pretty good for some, but indeterminant for others. A State shape made it easiest. Cultural connection, like Germany/MKE or France/NOLA arent so bad. Legeater?? Wtf. I think the two runes next to the X in image 9 are best for identifying a Scandinavian or Netherland/Lowland Gnome connection, making it easier to focus on a Viking landing in Nova Scotia. Preiss seemed to use Ancient Greek references more than anything. Its almost suprising that image4 actually ended up being a Greek Garden. I'm not suprised it took so long for that puzzle to be found. Its stunning to think of these puzzles in a Pre-internet age point of view. /rant

erexere wrote:: How do we decide what is the best candidate hook in any image? Lat and Long seemed pretty good for some, but indeterminant for others. A State shape made it easiest. Cultural connection, like Germany/MKE or France/NOLA arent so bad. Legeater?? Wtf. I think the two runes next to the X in image 9 are best for identifying a Scandinavian or Netherland/Lowland Gnome connection, making it easier to focus on a Viking landing in Nova Scotia. /rant The Boer War monument in Dorchester square, within the Golden Square Mile is a nice Dutch connection to Montral.

Yes, it is.

erexere wrote:: so lets look for SELOY?! I think thats just a mess to explain, but it exists because we can google search obscuritues. So as far as SELOY goes, I honestly never ever gave it any creedence. Basically with the amount of words involved in this puzzle, statistically I would expect there to be at least 1 string of letters that forms a word that roughly fits along with the puzzle. Actually with the number of words in this I would expect 2 word strings. SELOY fits that It is there but I don't think it is really a clue BP created on purpose. To see this in action elsewhere, look at the book "The Bible Code" I don't count SELOY as a real clue.

maltedfalcon wrote:: So as far as SELOY goes, I honestly never ever gave it any creedence. Basically with the amount of words involved in this puzzle, statistically I would expect there to be at least 1 string of letters that forms a word that roughly fits along with the puzzle. Actually with the number of words in this I would expect 2 word strings. SELOY fits that It is there but I don't think it is really a clue BP created on purpose. To see this in action elsewhere, look at the book "The Bible Code" I don't count SELOY as a real clue. That sounds a little crazy to me. Taking the first letters of the lines in the puzzles, you'll be hard-pressed to find ANY word of length. I think the longest word you can come up with is "abbot" in V10. There aren't even many cases where the vowel/consonant structure would even allow for the likely construction of a name or proper noun. Maybe 7 or 8 in the entire 12 verses that even show up as proper nouns in a Google search, none of which are in English. So for a 5-letter word to just happen to match up to the exact location with the correct verse would be highly unlikely. Type "Seloy" into a search and the FOY is the first match.

I feel SELOY is no accident. There may be the opinion that red-herrings dont exist, this is one I hope to someday prove. I thought the V10 contained what looks like a broken acrostic saying "CANS TO FLOAT".

maltedfalcon wrote:: So as far as SELOY goes, I honestly never ever gave it any creedence. Basically with the amount of words involved in this puzzle, statistically I would expect there to be at least 1 string of letters that forms a word that roughly fits along with the puzzle. Actually with the number of words in this I would expect 2 word strings. SELOY fits that It is there but I don't think it is really a clue BP created on purpose. To see this in action elsewhere, look at the book "The Bible Code" I don't count SELOY as a real clue. You are joking, right? You realize the bible code and the first-line letter acrostics of this puzzle have ZERO in common methodologically? Statistically? Really? Have you run the probability on this? I'll be happy to send you the latest SPSS package and you can actually test this yourself. Try this for me... Write twelve 15-sentence paragraphs about twelve different restaurants you like. Now, take the first letter of each line within each of those paragraphs and see if they spell a dish on that restaurants menu. Any hits? OK... try it a hundred more times... any hits? Here's a similar example: hxxp://digitalcommons.butler.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3033&context=wordways

yes seloy comes to the top of a search referencing a foy display built in 2013 prior to that the word was more obscure, and when first found it was amazing to me that the association had been made. and even if it is a valid clue, it is redundant when put next to first chapter written in water. especially if it only is a clue that points to the FOY. perhaps it is referring to a sign or plaque that is no longer there. but more telling is it never happens in any of the other verses.

maltedfalcon wrote:: yes seloy comes to the top of a search referencing a foy display built in 2013. prior to that the word was more obscure maltedfalcon wrote:: and even if it is a valid clue, it is redundant when put next to first chapter written in water. especially if it only is a clue that points to the FOY. maltedfalcon wrote:: perhaps it is referring to a sign or plaque that is no longer there. maltedfalcon wrote:: but more telling is it never happens in any of the other verses. No, it wasn't. It isn't redundant for the fact that it is on on-site visual/quote of a different object that "First Chapter." Regardless, it would be accurate to say that at least 80% of the puzzles contain redundant park confirmers, let alone many other city/object redundant confirmers. But, it was and is still there. But, it does happen in another verse.

I've become comfortable with the idea that Preiss put a hell of a lot of work into shaping each raw illustration before JJP adds the finishing touches. The verse on the other hand involves a staggering level of dodgery. Word choices, phrase, and references from obscurity are very specific to each situation. What I'm not comfortable with is how so much theory hinges on oddball bits of information that doesn't seem practical to the pre-internet world view. When I look at all my theories to date, I feel like a failure. I've fact checked to the best of my ability, but it never seems good enough. Probably most of my frustration is the futile nature of looking for any casque location where I don't have immediate or local access. Also, I'm really tired of looking at any maps made post-1982. If there is one in Oregon, then that's all I should be talking about in any specific measure. As far as the other locations, I should only ask standard questions and mitigate incidental moments of insanity.

I feel your pain. I live in a city with a casque, but far enough away and with too many responsibilities to squeeze in the amount of on-the-ground searching that is probably necessary.

maltedfalcon wrote:: I don't count SELOY as a real clue. stercox wrote:: SELOY ...is the name of the old indian village that the FOY park sits on.  There is a sign at the park referencing this.  A major acrostic clue!!  And it was right in front of us all the time!!  Just goes to show you, new clues can be found even when you've studied it for years. Dude, you've been reading too many of Erexere's posts. You're slipping away. Like "Shell, limestone" and "Silver salt", "Seloy" appears on a plaque at FOY, the one at the base of the Saturiwa statue. I don't know when it dates from, but if it was post-1982, it must surely have appeared somewhere else. It was before 2013 anyway, because Stercox posted about it in 2007. Blooming casque was probably buried right next to it.

whiterabbit, your trying to hard to make a joke. You are aware of all the wacky and wild associations youve made over the years, right?

Unknown: your trying to hard to make a joke If it makes you feel any better E, the trending speculation that we may have the wrong cities, or the wrong Verse/Image connections is crazier than some of what you have posted over the years. [Rant] Everyone is entitled to their own opinion I guess. Mine is that that train of thought is nothing but sheer laziness and an unwillingness to work the puzzles the way Preiss intended. Or maybe it's just frustration at the lack of progress. Or a refusal to accept that these are highly visual puzzles that have been significantly affected by all the changes to the landscape over the past 33 years. So much so that in most cases that you can't just retrace Preiss' orginial steps, see what he saw, and dig a small hole to retrieve a casque. It is also my opinion that many of the casques are gone, lost to time and changes in the landscape. But there are some, in whole or in part, that are still exactly where Preiss put them in 1981/82. And someone is going to find one. Not stumble upon it, or dig it up by accident. But actually dig one up by working the puzzle, building on the information that has been archived here, and seeing the thing(s) that up until this point have eluded the rest of us. They may be small things, but when the margin of error between success and failure is a foot or two, it's the small things that matter. [/Rant]

WhiteRabbit wrote:: img I don't know when it dates from, but if it was post-1982, it must surely have appeared somewhere else. It was before 2013 anyway, because Stercox posted about it in 2007. Wrong one... Closer to "years pass."

Unknown: If it makes you feel any better E, the trending speculation that we may have the wrong cities, or the wrong Verse/Image connections is crazier than some of what you have posted over the years. I am actually a huge proponent of trying new verse/image combinations. I particularly like I9/V12 and I1/V4. Would you all be willing to work on those for the next several months?

R. absolutely! That's an extremely good way to look at it. I don't want to give in to frustration. I know best how hard it is to escape my own fixations. I don't always have the strength to resist sharing my thoughts. The worst case scenario, I'm just wrong, but given the way these verses reaed and some of the symbolic perspectives of the visual puzzles, I'm vigilant in my enthusiasm to work with ideas outside the group focus. And what if the group is wrong? I don't want to spend all my time following the wrong theory. I've done my share of digging, so I understand the small things matter. I don't believe in luck in these puzzles. My opinion is also that some are lost, but some are still intact.

erexere wrote:: whiterabbit, your trying to hard to make a joke. You are aware of all the wacky and wild associations youve made over the years, right? Erpobdelliforme wrote:: the trending speculation that we may have the wrong cities, or the wrong Verse/Image connections is crazier Oh, sure. *hangs head in shame* (I'm only saying, you're the original seloysceptic. ) I don't know what image/verse combinations you prefer, or how you could be certain which of V5/V6 is Charleston, or V2/V7 is New Orleans, or what SF is, when there are still references like "Lane two twenty two", and "An arc of lights", and "An object of Twain's attention" that no-one can be sure of. It seems to me that BP went out of his way to confuse the pairings, and I don't see Abroad in America as an incontrovertible guide. (In fact, it seems positively unlikely to me that he would have cemented two pairings from the same obscure book.)

WhiteRabbit wrote:: ... I don't see Abroad in America as an incontrovertible guide. (In fact, it seems positively unlikely to me that he would have cemented two pairings from the same obscure book.) Yes, but extrapolate... why is FOY on lock with its V pairing? Why is Roanoke on lock with its V pairing? Why is Boston on lock with its V pairing? Is it possible that while we likely know the potential locations for different potential V/I combos, that the only thing we lack is the solution to a line or two that makes the V/I pairing, and thus most probable location, definitive?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Yes, but extrapolate... why is FOY on lock with its V pairing? Why is Roanoke on lock with its V pairing? Multiple quotes from signs combined with other identifiable connections. (I admit "near this site" along with BPs "St Louis" hint has won me over to V2 for NO. But I'm not seeing this for Charleston or SF, and I'd still hesitate to rule out V7 for NO entirely.)

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Multiple quotes from signs combined with other identifiable connections. (I admit "near this site" has won me over to V2 for NO.) Is there not a single clue in each, though, that makes it definitive?

Unknown: The worst case scenario, I'm just wrong, With all due respect, you are wrong...about Vancouver, and Oregon, and any of the other off the wall locations that you are proposing. The good news is that's not the worst case scenario, it's actually the best. Because once you accept that, and move back to the more conventional solves, you might be able to use your considerable talents for finding things on the internet to looking for things that will actually advance the puzzles along. Almost without exception, Preiss made simple connections between what he saw as he walked and photographed the streets, trails, paths, and parks of the twelve cities in question. Look at Chicago: set in stone, Congress, L sits, fence, 10x13. All extremely literal clues with at most, one degree of separation. Look at Cleveland: Road curves, rectangular plot, columns, 7 steps, Pindar. Same thing. Milwaukee: Nature, copper, 92 steps, compass, 100 paces SE. A little more poetic, but still no more than one degree of separation. These were the first three puzzles he did, and they established the blueprint, and set the methodology for the rest. Sure he made subtle changes as he went along, adding and omitting things as the locations and Palencar's drawings warranted. But what did not change, and what you need to accept, is that the Verse is a simple road map to a specific spot in the ground. It doesn't require research, and it doesn't rely on tenuous connections between unrelated objects (again, almost without exception). It just requires you to be in the right starting place, and follow the clues using common sense, and just a little bit of your imagination.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: It doesn't require research, and it doesn't rely on tenuous connections between unrelated objects (again, almost without exception). I would venture to say that it NEVER relies on tenuous connections. Even with Abroad in America, even if you chose NOT to accept the confirmatory quote, finding the treasure (would)did not RELY on you "solving" that clue. But what did that clue do, then?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Is there not a single clue in each, though, that makes it definitive? I don't know; I guess a distinctive quote would be the best lead, but I can't think that a single one would be entirely convincing unless it was clearly unique and the rest of the verse was also a decent fit. (And that's a quote from a sign, not a book.) So, no, it's multiple lines that seal the deal for me on those.

R., have you joined the hat-eaters club? Which style hat do you prefer? Sauce? I can recommend a few good beer options to wash it down if Im ever proven right. Yeah, I see the directness side to the clues tbat led to the Cleveland and Chicago solves, but I think there's an enigmatic side also and thats what makes Byron Preiss special. I felt this was true the moment I read Preiss' First Crazy Word book about Verbs (1982). It's demonstrates something very key about how serious he is about word usage.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I don't know; I guess a distinctive quote would be the best lead, but I can't think that a single one would be entirely convincing unless it was clearly unique. (And that's a quote from a sign, not a book.) ... Seems like you have a couple types of clues there that definitively locked a verse to an image for you - a quote from a book, and an indisputable quote from a sign. I wonder if those types of clues could lock any other images to verses? I wonder if we could take it to a more basic level and just say, "quotes." Hmm... any other verses have quotes that we know of? Any other verses maybe have another "type" of clue that definitely links an I and a V? Maybe does/could that type of clue be found in other images or verses to make a definitive connection?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Any other verses maybe have another "type" of clue that definitely links an I and a V? Maybe does/could that type of clue be found in other images or verses to make a definitive connection? But there are ambiguities. Take V7. Charleston has a quote for Edwin and a plaque for May 1913. SF has a plaque for another Edwin who links to May 1913, and a plaque for RLS. BP references a book called "Pierre, or The Ambiguities". He knows about ambiguities. They're deliberate. There are false trails.

Unknown: I don't know what image/verse combinations you prefer I am 100% certain that Verse 4 goes with Chicago and Verse 12 goes with Cleveland. I am 99.9% certain that Verse 1 goes with Houston, Verse 2 goes with New Orleans, Verse 6 goes with Charleston, Verse 8 goes with Milwaukee, Verse 9 goes with St. Augustine, and Verse 11 goes with Roanoke. I am 99% sure that Verse 3 goes with Boston, Verse 5 goes with Montreal, Verse 7 goes with San Francisco, and Verse 10 goes with New York. Oddly enough, I believe that NY, Boston, and Montreal were the second set of three that Preiss did, and fearing that he had made the first three too easy, ramped up the difficulty factor considerably. That is why we have made, relatively speaking, considerably less progress on those three cities. I will change my view when someone presents compelling evidence to the contrary. But recently, all I've seen is a lot of hand wringing over how hard these puzzles are, and how much of a struggle it is to make even small advances. Frequently, these comments are made by people who, IMO, show an alarming lack of understanding of how the puzzles are constructed. Which I find hilarious considering that almost everything you need to know is contained in this archive. Somewhere.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Verse 5 goes with Montreal If you're right, I feel this should be the focus. I've seen very little on it. AFAIK the only link that's been made here is the old Salvation Army citadel in legeater lane.

Unknown: R., have you joined the hat-eaters club? I don't think so. Those so called haters either have you on ignore, or are openly mocking you and your ideas. I am doing neither. I will continue to read all your posts, and I will comment when I think an idea has merit. And continue to hope that someday, the thing that we have all been trying to tell you (going on 29 pages now) will finally sink in. What can I say, I'm an optimist.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: But there are ambiguities. Take V7. Charleston has a quote for Edwin and a plaque for May 1913. SF has a plaque for another Edwin who links to May 1913, and a plaque for RLS. BP references a book called "Pierre, or The Ambiguities". He knows about ambiguities. They're deliberate. There are false trails. Seems like you have pointed out three quotes - ambiguities, edwin and edwina, who build palaces - which definitively link a verse to a city. And look, there are other types of clues in those verses that are so strong, quotes in fact, we can say they reinforce , just like the image does, the fact that we are using the right verse with the right image/city. Do we see this method displayed in any other verses and/or images? What if we couldn't find this method displayed in some images and verses? Does that mean it's not there, or maybe just that it is still too obscure - even with the internet? Or, perhaps those verses utilize another type of linking method, which might be common amongst a few of the puzzles that couldn't be definitely linked and reinforced using the first method.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: If you're right, I feel this should be the focus. I've seen very little on it. AFAIK the only link that's been made here is the old Salvation Army citadel in Legeater lane. I've seen four independent theories on V5 P9. (2 theories came from non-q4t sources.) The oddest thing I've seen is someone using V10 P9 to get to the same spot basic spot in Dorchester as someone using V5 P9. This tells me there's either a hellish amount of ambiguity or someone isn't really carring how the verse reads...

erexere wrote:: The oddest thing I've seen is someone using V10 P9 to get to the same spot basic spot in Dorchester as someone using V5 P9. This tells me there's either a hellish amount of ambiguity or someone isn't really carring how the verse reads... Or, it tells you they are taking liberties with the images and verses that they shouldn't be.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: And look, there are other types of clues in those verses that are so strong, quotes in fact, we can say they reinforce , just like the image does, the fact that we are using the right verse with the right image/city. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I still think V6 SF is just as plausible as V7 SF. I don't reckon SF, Montreal or Charleston are in the bag yet. Like I say, V5 Montreal isn't even off the starting block.

BTW... keep all this in the context of linking an image to a verse, and not a verse to a digspot.

Unknown: If you're right, I feel this should be the focus. If I'm right, it's as much by default as anything else. I believe with almost 100% certainty that there is a casque in Montreal, and I believe that all the other Verses are spoken for. I also believe that without feet on the ground in Montreal, the chances that this casque will ever be recovered are slim. That is why it is not a focus for me at this time.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I still think V6 SF is just as plausible as V7 SF. Unknown: What if we couldn't find this method displayed in some images and verses? Does that mean it's not there, or maybe just that it is still too obscure - even with the internet? Or, perhaps those verses utilize another type of linking method, which might be common amongst a few of the puzzles that couldn't be definitely linked and reinforced using the first method. I think you haven't asked yourself or answered the questions:

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I still think V6 SF is just as plausible as V7 SF. I don't reckon SF, Montreal or Charleston are in the bag yet. Like I say, V5 Montreal isn't even off the starting block. Is V7 with P2 also plausible?

Unknown: I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. What exactly are we disagreeing on? With the exception of Chicago and Cleveland, none of the other solves are in the bag. All I'm really trying to say is that I don't think in those remaining cases, we have fully resolved what I consider to be the most likely solutions. And I have seen scant evidence of any compelling theories to the contrary. I will consider them when I do. But I can't and won't waste my time looking for alternatives, when I think the most reasonable solutions have not been fully explored and rejected.

erexere wrote:: Is V7 with P2 also plausible? Outside of the context of BP's structure of clues, absolutely. They are all possible. But that's the secret - you have to contain yourself to BP's clue structure; otherwise, lots is possible. Get basic, let him bound you to a place using obvious methods... don't be scared off by the simplicity of in-your-face clues.

Unknown: Is V7 with P2 also plausible? Image 2 is Charleston without dispute. If you think that Verse 7 will lead you to a dig spot in that city, advance the theory. But before you try, you might want to explain away the "Edwin and Edwina" line in Verse 6.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Verse 2 goes with New Orleans Verse 6 goes with Charleston Verse 5 goes with Montreal Verse 10 goes with New York Unknown: I believe that NY, Boston, and Montreal were the second set of three that Preiss did, and fearing that he had made the first three too easy, ramped up the difficulty factor considerably. I'm not as positive as I once was on these. Might take some convincing, but I'm open minded on a different arrangement here. I'm at least willing to entertain convincing alternatives. As far as the verses? Or as far as the images? I think Image 12 is one of the more obvious. He uses the face of the Statue of Liberty as the "iconic city hint". That's light years ahead of Milwaukee City Hall as far as being easily recognizable to the early 80's layman.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: If you're right, I feel this should be the focus. I've seen very little on it. AFAIK the only link that's been made here is the old Salvation Army citadel in legeater lane. I've explored some ideas here that I can probably dig up my theories having to deal with the Royal Victoria Hospital in Montreal being the "Granite Walls, Windswept Halls, a Citadel in the night". I thought the "wingless bird ascended born of ancient dreams of flight" referred to a weathervane, and there happens to be one on top of one of the buildings of the Royal Victoria Hospital. The Royal Victoria Hospital was also funded in large part by George "Lord Mount" Stephen, so it's at least connected to the legeater in Image 9, even if that's a bit of a stretch. I do think that once we actually figure out what this really means, we'll make a lot of progress: Lane Two twenty two

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Seems like you have pointed out three quotes - ambiguities, edwin and edwina, who build palaces - which definitively link a verse to a city. And look, there are other types of clues in those verses that are so strong, quotes in fact, we can say they reinforce , just like the image does, the fact that we are using the right verse with the right image/city. Do we see this method displayed in any other verses and/or images? What if we couldn't find this method displayed in some images and verses? Does that mean it's not there, or maybe just that it is still too obscure - even with the internet? Or, perhaps those verses utilize another type of linking method, which might be common amongst a few of the puzzles that couldn't be definitely linked and reinforced using the first method. Totally on board with all of this. Despite what I just said, this is largely the foundation upon which I am willing to reasonably try to explore other options. Why would there be a couple of Edwins and Edwinas named after "him". Edwin Forrest or Edwin Blymot? I'll give Preiss credit enough to make some of these references swing both ways when trying to connect them to images which at least leaves me open to entertain other options, I suppose.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Image 2 is Charleston without dispute. If you think that Verse 7 will lead you to a dig spot in that city, advance the theory. But before you try, you might want to explain away the "Edwin and Edwina" line in Verse 6. Again, the idea would be that Edwin and Edwina Booth were both named after Edwin Forrest and we are looking for a Forrest reference. The "On the eighth, a scene" would be in reference to the theater, which all parties involved were stars.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Almost without exception, Preiss made simple connections between what he saw as he walked and photographed the streets, trails, paths, and parks of the twelve cities in question. Look at Chicago: set in stone, Congress, L sits, fence, 10x13. All extremely literal clues with at most, one degree of separation. Look at Cleveland: Road curves, rectangular plot, columns, 7 steps, Pindar. Same thing. Milwaukee: Nature, copper, 92 steps, compass, 100 paces SE. A little more poetic, but still no more than one degree of separation. These were the first three puzzles he did, and they established the blueprint, and set the methodology for the rest. Sure he made subtle changes as he went along, adding and omitting things as the locations and Palencar's drawings warranted. An interesting theory on the 3 Midwest cities being first. Could be. However, I seem to remember either BP or JJP telling me that JJP called BP one day, and tells BP that he has an idea for hiding a treasure in the Greek Garden. I think it was because BP didn't have a Greek match anywhere yet, but it has been so long, I don't remember exactly. So, I am thinking that if that actually occurred, then perhaps Cleveland was one of the last cities. I always thought that St. Augustine was the first one, since the sign that has the "shell limestone silver salt" clue also mentions the word "casque," and BP thought it meant a treasure holder, although it really was referring to a helmet. That's where he got the term. Look up the definition of the word casque, and you will see that it is NOT defined as a container.

And Edwin Booth is mentioned on a plaque in New Orleans on St. Charles Ave. between Lafayette Square and the old site of the St. Charles Hotel Domingo Sarmiento loved so much. Dude got around.

Unknown: I always thought that St. Augustine was the first one, since the sign that has the "shell limestone silver salt" clue also mentions the word "casque," and BP thought it meant a treasure holder, although it really was referring to a helmet. That's where he got the term. Winters are mild in Florida. In Montreal and Boston, not so much. While he could have edited the prose right up to the point that the final draft of the book went to the printer (assuming he hadn't come across the word in his intial research of the park), he had a practical reason for burying the casques from north to south.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Winters are mild in Florida. In Montreal and Boston, not so much. While he could have edited the prose right up to the point that the final draft of the book went to the printer (assuming he hadn't come across the word in his intial research of the park), he had a practical reason for burying the casques from north to south. Some of that has never struck me as being particularly calculated.

Unknown: Some of that has never struck me as being particularly calculated. Are you suggesting that he just wandered the country, putting plastic cubes in the ground at random?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Are you suggesting that he just wandered the country, putting plastic cubes in the ground at random? Not at all, but I do put stock in what Egbert posted above, and what Preiss was documented to have done/said. We remind me of the superfans that get pissed when their favorite actors don't remember every single detail of a certain episode/movie they've done. I think it's easy to fall prey to over-analysis, I guess is my point. I am as guilty as anyone.

Unknown: Not at all, but I do put stock in what Egbert posted above, and what Preiss was documented to have done/said. Fair enough. I'm not sure it really matters anyway. I was just looking for an explanation for why the puzzles in New York, Boston, and Montreal are seemingly so much harder than those is Chicago, Cleveland, and Milwaukee and this could be one of those reasons. As far as I am able to tell, nothing that I am suggesting is inconsistent with the best information that I was able to gather on the subject at the time I did the research, which was several years ago. Given the tight deadlines he had to work under, it just makes sense to me that Preiss had a plan, and that part of that plan was to put the northern casques in the ground before winter.

Egbert wrote:: (cont'd from above) Andy and I absorbed a lot of information that B.Preiss had told us about The Secret. I hope I can recall all of it for you here: 1. The Chicago casque was found by 2 young stockbrokers, who lived in Chicago, and had recognized some of the sites and verse references right away. However, at the time, there was some type of renovation occurring, in which a large marble or concrete object had been placed over the burial site. So, they took a picture of it, and sent it to B.Preiss, who acknowledged that as soon as the renovation was finished, the treasure was theirs. He doesn't recall meeting them, doesn't have a copy of any newspaper article, but does recall that an article was run in one of the major Chicago newspapers at the time. Flipping through the book, B.Preiss told us that "M and B" stand for Mozart and Beethoven. "Ten by thirteen" refers to feet. "Brush" refers to the Art Museum. 2. I thought that most of the colors on my casque had been washed away, except for 1 creature that I thought looked like an imp. However, none of the 12 casques were fully painted. They were left unpainted, except each one had a different figure painted (there are 12 figures on the casque). My figure is actually the front of a centaur, which is of course contained in the Cleveland pic. B.Preiss did not recall what had been painted underneath the cover (which is in many pieces), but he believes that it may have said "The Secret." Each key looks the same, but they are different colors (mine is orange). 3. B.Preiss had buried all of the casques over the course of only several days --- carrying all of them in a large duffle bag, and armed with a shovel. He researched the sites generally from New York, but then researched each site locally once he got there. He took pics of all of the sites. After they were all buried, he created the puzzles and had John Palencar paint the pics (B.Preiss worked with him to guide J.Palencar as to what to put into the pics). After that, he purchased the jewels, all from 1 jeweler. 4. From the Cleveland pic, he said that we got all of the clues. "Birch" referred to a birch tree that had been there. "Couplet" had referred to a nearby poem (although Andy and I do not recall any nearby). "Free speech" refers to Socrates. 5. B.Preiss was a very good poker player, and was not giving out any hints about any of the other locations. However, he did confirm my theory that the countries of origin of the faeries do connect with the sites. He also said that the pages following the verses (which make up the bulk of the book) have NO connection with the puzzles, and contain no additional clues. 6. This last part will sadden quite a few of you. Mr. Preiss would like it to be known that he will no longer respond to emails regarding proposed solutions (or asking for hints) --- and that he will only respond to actual pictures of casques. I am sad to report that he is a busy businessman, and this is not very important to him any more. I would like to point out, however, that although getting the jewel and meeting B.Preiss was nice, the best part of my adventure was solving the puzzle, traveling to Cleveland, and finding the treasure. You should keep in mind that you are doing this to achieve a personal satisfaction --- solving a 22-year-old conundrum --- and not just to get a jewel. The journey is more fun than the destination. I hope I remembered everything --- if I think of anything else, I'll let you know. Good luck in your quests. I am curious as to why you think BP started in the late summer or fall, and then took probably several weeks to bury them, according to your theory. I went back and looked at what I had posted on the message board after meeting BP, when it was fresh in my mind. Take a look at #3:

Unknown: I am curious as to why you think BP started in the late summer or fall, and then took probably several weeks to bury them, according to your theory. I am aware of the information above, but I just don't buy some of it, especially #3. Number 5 however, I believe completely. A couple of days? I don't think so. Even if you knew exactly what you were doing, given the logistics of burying 12 casques all over North America, it would take at least a week, and that assumes that you could do 2 a day. Remember, he didn't just have to dig a hole in the ground and fill it back up again. He had to walk around, gather information, take pictures, wait for the right opportunity to dig, and then, when he was satisfied that he had everything he needed (because more than likely, he wasn't planning to return), travel to the next city and do the whole thing over again. Twelve times. Just to be clear, I am not saying that you didn't report the conversation that you had with Preiss accurately. I am saying that there is enough evidence (other things that he said and wrote) to suggest that he might have told you things that weren't entirely true, either because he had forgotten the details, or because he didn't want to give you an unfair advantage over other people who were still actively engaged in the hunt, and would not have had access to the same information.

Yes, #1 as well is entirely incorrect, which makes me believe that #4 could be incorrect as well, as it is self-contradictory.

Didn't I read that 10x13 was the number of trees, and there was confusion because one or more of the trees was removed by the time they started searching?

Frisco wrote:: Didn't I read that 10x13 was the number of trees, and there was confusion because one or more of the trees was removed by the time they started searching? This shouldnt even be up for discussion after so many members here have been to the site in Grant Park and reviewed the solve.

Frisco wrote:: Didn't I read that 10x13 was the number of trees, and there was confusion because one or more of the trees was removed by the time they started searching? hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=737&p=131519#p131519 Yes, it was from the finders who stated BP told them to go back and count the trees. Without that, they would not have found the casque. So, when #1 from Egbert says that BP told him that 10x13 was feet, I am at a loss. Like I've said many times... don't believe anything anyone tells you. Find your own proof before putting stock in ANYTHING.

Unknown: So, when #1 from Brian says that BP told him that 10x13 was feet, I am at a loss. Let me help you out then. By word and by deed, and with the exception of the help he rendered to the Chicago group, Preiss was not at all interested in helping anyone find a casque. At all. As a matter of fact, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that he went out of his way to make things more confusing, not less.

I put stock in the verses and images. Anything on top of that and I could second-guess myself into the ground. The 70s and early 80s were weird, man. Anything could've happened.

hxxp://kspot.org/trove/ct_111682b1.jpg "Preiss, 29, hid the jewels over several months as he crossed the country on other business, carrying with him a six-foot shovel and various "disguises" that he won't discuss."

forest_blight wrote:: ...and various "disguises" that he won't discuss." Maybe he was an alternate in the Village People.

No but one of his friends and a book contributor worked for the band Parliment in the 70's and 80's

Egbert raises a great point about the odd word choice of casque for a container. I think this is an epitome a Fair Folk tendency to adopt words for their own uses. Clearly it's a homonym for a "cask", which is a container. At the very least, this should serve as a precedent for other occassions of descrepency.

Egbert wrote:: I thought that most of the colors on my casque had been washed away, except for 1 creature that I thought looked like an imp.  However, none of the 12 casques were fully painted.  They were left unpainted, except each one had a different figure painted (there are 12 figures on the casque).  My figure is actually the front of a centaur, which is of course contained in the Cleveland pic.  B.Preiss did not recall what had been painted underneath the cover (which is in many pieces), but he believes that it may have said "The Secret."  Each key looks the same, but they are different colors (mine is orange). It would be interesting to know what these twelve figures are, and see them in more detail.

I would bet they relate to characters in the story that go along with each city.

So, it appears that BP was telling me things that were incorrect, when I got the jewel from him. Saying that under the cover was "the Secret," saying that 10x15 referred to feet, etc. I do not think he was intentionally doing this. My guess is that 22 years later, he simply did not remember all the details. So, his statement about "St. LouiD" may be incorrect as well, no?

By the books description, there could be one in Mexico. It just says North America...BUT, someone did post an email where BP confirmed there was a casque in Canada...so by process of elimination, in the sense that we have located the city image matches for at least 11 of them (if not all 12) that St. Louis MO would be ruled out as at least 1 of them would have to be in Canada...that is IF Preiss wasn't lying about that.

Can you take some hi res photos of the casque and spin it around? I'm interested to see the different creatures. wilhouse

I am pretty sure that we have all 4 sides of the complete Chicago casque somewhere. If we don't, sure, I can take photos of the Cleveland one.

Unknown: So, his statement about "St. LouiD" may be incorrect as well, no? Depends. Was he talking about the city, or some part of one of the remaining ten cities that prevailing wisdom favors? We know that St. Louis might factor into the New Orleans and Montreal puzzles, so perhaps we should consider this a case of Preiss being playfully cryptic. But generally speaking, everything Preiss said or wrote after 1984 (after he realized that the Chicago find wasn't going to produce a renewed interest in "The Secret") should be considered suspect, and not taken at face value.

Frisco wrote:: The original rules didn't require digging, but we can't get the answers otherwise now, for sure. I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't great that you're digging, just poking fun at the fact that you're so smug about it. I agree about going back to the drawing board, which is why I think it's odd that you're so vehemently opposed to exploring theories that don't agree with the rules you've arbitrarily set for yourself and your group. Personally, once I dug a few empty holes based on certain assumptions, I'd start at least considering that my assumptions might be partly at fault. But that's a topic for methodology, and one we've already agreed to disagree about. This is a decent post here, Frisco... "I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't great that you're digging, just poking fun at the fact that you're so smug about it." There's two types of digging - 1) diggin in Oregon; and 2) diggin in lake park. I couldn't give two shits (or one for that matter) where you dug in lake park, it would be a good thing. However, diggin in Oregon is seriously fruitless, and I have no qualm being smug about it. It is not helpful... we already knew the casque wasn't there. in lake park though... "I think it's odd that you're so vehemently opposed to exploring theories that don't agree with the rules you've arbitrarily set" - I have no rules... ask Erpobdelliforme. I'm probably the most open-minded of this entire board (insert subtle shoutout to the juggler here). HOWEVER, I do try to stay in the confines and context of the way BP and JPP created clues, which they did methodically. For instance, when you are on Wheel of Fortune and the topic is "things that annoy you," "i" isn't a very good pic when "n_ggers" is on the board. So, when you are in a city, stay within the context of the game you are playing. It seems like many don't even realize we are supposed to be guessing letters at all, let alone know the game we are playing.

Unknown: I have no rules... ask Erpobdelliforme. I'm probably the most open-minded of this entire board (insert subtle shoutout to the juggler here). HOWEVER, I do try to stay in the confines and context of the way BP and JPP created clues, which they did methodically. For instance, when you are on Wheel of Fortune and the topic is "things that annoy you," "i" isn't a very good pic when "n_ggers" is on the board. So, when you are in a city, stay within the context of the game you are playing. It seems like many don't even realize we are supposed to be guessing letters at all, let alone know the game we are playing. You definitely have rules. And you're also making assumptions about the way BP and JPP created clues. That was the main point of your numerous Facebook rants--that there is a way these puzzles work and any theory that didn't fit in that framework gets ignored by you and your group. That's the sort of thing I mean--we really have no idea how these puzzles were created, outside the rough outline of burial->Polaroids for JPP->verses written. And we have no idea if they all follow the same method. All we have to go on are two found casques that practically hold your hand all the way to the dig site. Some of the remaining verses are far more complex than Cleveland and Chicago ones, so I'm not confident that the verses are holding our hands as tightly anymore. They may be, though, so I'm happy to entertain both possibilities. My only "rule" so far is that I don't think they're anywhere near as convoluted as some people theorize, but even that may be wishful thinking on my part. So even if I stick with simple explanations, I'll happily let others do the complex ones.

Frisco wrote:: You definitely have rules. And you're also making assumptions about the way BP and JPP created clues. That was the main point of your numerous Facebook rants--that there is a way these puzzles work and any theory that didn't fit in that framework gets ignored by you and your group. Frisco, there are certain things we have learned about this puzzle that took us a very long time to understand, so yes we do ignore things that don't fit in the framework, there is a reason, and that is we have seen how exploring these options leads us off course. As Renovator explained you can make a Verse apply not only to multiple cities (just about any city actually), but also to multiple locations within the same city. The only way to distinguish right from wrong is to know why it's a correct path. The only way to do that is to go back, study what we know, and apply it to the technique. Because everyone on our team has made an agreement to one another that we would keep the knowledge we share within the team only, we can't just come out and tell you why certain things are right or wrong but 421, Renovator, myself, and a few others on the team have been dropping huge hints on here from time to time for the smart people to maybe pick up on. My hints are mostly ignored so I just stopped posting them, Renovator and 421's theories seem to be argued against time and time again. Other members of the group haven't really dropped too many hint's, but the point is, we have dropped a lot of knowledge on here over the last month, and there are only a few people listening, and most of them are arguing against our theories instead of looking at what we have been trying to say. I'd love to expound on it more but all of us are busy digging this month. We have been digging and doing on site research all year actually. In my opinion, and we have been working strong on this as a team for 3 years now, through our own heated debates and some people's brains almost exploding, we understand how this puzzle works. Maybe we aren't 100% on all of it, but we are in the 90th percentile. When you immerse yourself in this thing for years, when you visit the historical societies, look through books and books of archives, endless search results, and just put in the work of trying to fully figure out what things looked like in the 80's, and fully figure out how these verses work, and constantly go over them time and time again, you just pick up on what BP was doing...his way of hiding clues, his types of clues, his way of tying things in etc... We have left enough bread crumbs on all of these threads, not to mention all the posts we have put up individually prior to us getting together on our own, to give a picture of what we think is going on here...and anyone willing to open their mind and read between the lines is going to pick up on it. So yes, we do ignore certain finds, because there is a right and wrong in this, and you need to figure it out before you can follow the verse correctly. Also we could just come out and post all our theories on here, but that's not going to help because they will just be argued against because they don't fit what other people think they know, that's why we are trying to get all of you to figure it out for yourselves by dropping hints, but everyone is so recalcitrant towards what we have to offer that it's becoming fruitless.

Unknown: I'd love to expound on it more but all of us are busy digging this month. How patronizing. Why bother with your little hints? Just to feel superior? You want to help people, but not enough that they'd compete with you? Is there even anyone active on this forum not in your "elite" group other than myself and erexere? Why do you guys bother logging in here at all? Anyway, just because multiple people have agreed on what is right and wrong in this hunt doesn't make it correct. The remaining puzzles may not follow the same pattern as the two solved ones, and even if they do, the proof is in the pudding. Go dig up some pudding, then maybe I'll go back and search your bread crumbs. But until then, I'll just assume you guys are only in this for yourselves and won't be sharing anything important. Really. You couldn't type a longer post because you're about to rush out the door with a shovel. Well, sorry to have held you up.

What a load of crap. Great to hear you're working together, but stop yourself when you say you're dropping hints. You're explicitly trolling and its just as easy to see you're trolling in between the lines. So you have a cosy framework that you understand as a group. Its theory until you recover a casque. If you continue to treat the process like you have answers or "proof" then you may as well join the hoax-community.

Frisco wrote:: How patronizing. Why bother with your little hints? Just to feel superior? You want to help people, but not enough that they'd compete with you? Is there even anyone active on this forum not in your "elite" group other than myself and erexere? Why do you guys bother logging in here at all? Anyway, just because multiple people have agreed on what is right and wrong in this hunt doesn't make it correct. The remaining puzzles may not follow the same pattern as the two solved ones, and even if they do, the proof is in the pudding. Go dig up some pudding, then maybe I'll go back and search your bread crumbs. But until then, I'll just assume you guys are only in this for yourselves and won't be sharing anything important. Really. You couldn't type a longer post because you're about to rush out the door with a shovel. Well, sorry to have held you up. That just proves my point...you think its some diabolical plot. It's not, just like the way people dive into this with a bunch of answers already provided, you don't learn anything when someone tells you the answer, you learn by figuring it out on your own. You're not holding us up, my flight leaves tomorrow, I was checking in on here to see if anyone had bothered to make any progress and to review some posts from 2006...all you seem to wanna do is find a way to dispute what we say instead of pick up on what we are trying to guide you into finding out. Keep taking stabs in the dark, doesn't bother me.

decibalnyc wrote:: That just proves my point...you think its some diabolical plot. It's not, just like the way people dive into this with a bunch of answers already provided, you don't learn anything when someone tells you the answer, you learn by figuring it out on your own. You're not holding us up, my flight leaves tomorrow, I was checking in on here to see if anyone had bothered to make any progress and to review some posts from 2006...all you seem to wanna do is find a way to dispute what we say instead of pick up on what we are trying to guide you into finding out. Keep taking stabs in the dark, doesn't bother me. I think what is a diabolical plot? That your group scours the forums for info from other people and then doesn't share anything with the hunting community? I don't think that's diabolical--just human nature. The only things you guys have given me to dispute are some random "hints" with no context, a strong belief that you are the only ones here not in the dark, and the attitude that digging a bunch of empty holes makes you more qualified to fabricate rules for the hunt. By that measure, and with your giant brains, it shouldn't be tough to figure out why people aren't in total agreement. I haven't seen a single thing that makes me believe you (or anyone on the forum) knows more than anyone else other than your own insistence. That's just a side effect of your group being so secretive. You expect me to take your word for it that you're brilliant treasure hunters without any concrete evidence? Pass. I'll definitely keep taking stabs. I make my own light.

Frisco wrote:: ... That your group scours the forums for info from other people and then doesn't share anything with the hunting community? ... Says the noob to the people who have been posting their shit on the forum since its inception. Facepalm.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: ... Says the noob to the people who have been posting their shit on the forum since its inception. Facepalm. Decibal, who I said that to, joined a little over a year ago. You joined in 2010. I believe this forum has been around since 2001. Do you know what "inception" means? (hint: it's not just a crappy movie)

Frisco wrote:: I haven't seen a single thing that makes me believe you (or anyone on the forum) knows more than anyone else other than your own insistence. That's just a side effect of your group being so secretive. You expect me to take your word for it that you're brilliant treasure hunters without any concrete evidence? Pass. I'll definitely keep taking stabs. I make my own light. Well one of the guys in our group owns a casque...is that not evidence?

Nope. Its unproven that the method for one casque is the same for another.

decibalnyc wrote:: Well one of the guys in our group owns a casque...is that not evidence? My wife is a doctor, but you probably don't want me giving you a physical. But seriously, while I think that Egbert did good work in finding his casque, I don't think that particular puzzle gives a whole lot of insight into the others. Definitely not all of the others. V4 is almost unique in its dearth of clues and precise dig location. There are definitely lessons to be learned there, and I think Egbert is an intelligent guy, but I don't think he is some sort of Rainman that is making your group into treasure-hunting savants.

No, and we never said that any of us were gods of the hunt as you're kinda making it out to be....but we all have been open to each others idea's and from that we started to get a bigger picture of what was going on. We argue all the time, but we all take a little from each others ideas to see the bigger picture. We are all trying to help without giving out answers. We are trying to get you and others to come to some conclusions on your own. There are a lot of things that people miss just jumping into this with some of the answers already provided, without understanding how and if those answers that you got from the wiki page or here are correct. Frisco we aren't trying to be all high and mighty...just maybe consider that we might have figured some things out...10 people working on this like 5-8 hours a day or night, some of us every day for months...we put a lot of time into it. I think we are all happy to debate plausible theories, but the whole reason we got the group together 3 years ago is that there was a severe lack of any type of theories on here for a while. Now that there appears to be intelligent people with some pressing questions, maybe we are trying to help out. It's just kinda discouraging when people make ad homonym attacks.

Again, glad to see you're working in your group, but please don't pretend that you're helping by keeping information to yourselves.

decibalnyc wrote:: No, and we never said that any of us were gods of the hunt as you're kinda making it out to be....but we all have been open to each others idea's and from that we started to get a bigger picture of what was going on. We argue all the time, but we all take a little from each others ideas to see the bigger picture. We are all trying to help without giving out answers. We are trying to get you and others to come to some conclusions on your own. There are a lot of things that people miss just jumping into this with some of the answers already provided, without understanding how and if those answers that you got from the wiki page or here are correct. Frisco we aren't trying to be all high and mighty...just maybe consider that we might have figured some things out...10 people working on this like 5-8 hours a day or night, some of us every day for months...we put a lot of time into it. I think we are all happy to debate plausible theories, but the whole reason we got the group together 3 years ago is that there was a severe lack of any type of theories on here for a while. Now that there appears to be intelligent people with some pressing questions, maybe we are trying to help out. It's just kinda discouraging when people make ad homonym attacks. Listen, I don't mean to start drama with your krewe. I'm just discouraged, myself, by the attitude of this search all around. I, too, have been spending hours a day every day for months on this, but I've also done it without having hardly anyone to talk to about it. Half of the people in this hunt are sworn to secrecy, half of them are too bored to care, half of them are erexere and hurt my brain, and the other half are on the Wiki taking Oregonian's nonsense seriously. (I am aware that the math does not add up there, but you typed "ad homonym", so I expect no pushback from you on that point.) So if you truly want to help the hunt and the people working on it, I don't understand the secrecy. If you want to solve them all by yourselves, that's fine too. It's the in-between that can get annoying, since while you may not be trying to act "high and mighty", that's how it comes off. Just my noob opinion.

Bringing the geometry/map convo to this thread. This prob been done and ackowledged somewhere before. There seem to be some significant effort to roughly align landmarks on a map to some of the undisputed art elements, i.e. water tower=windmill, earring=fountain, etc. I'd like to treat this as a methodological certainty and then move on to how to produce some kind of strategy that links a large iconic landmark to the jewel placement in the image for at the very least a general direction to go from that landmark that would lead to a casque. For reference: pink square is used for the general area where the casque was found in Grant Park and my assumption is that the jewel in the image represents casque location. The yellow rectangle is for a curve that looks characteristic of the back of the giant's head, I don't think that's been mentioned before.

Frisco wrote:: Listen, I don't mean to start drama with your krewe. I'm just discouraged, myself, by the attitude of this search all around. I, too, have been spending hours a day every day for months on this, but I've also done it without having hardly anyone to talk to about it. Half of the people in this hunt are sworn to secrecy, half of them are too bored to care, half of them are erexere and hurt my brain, and the other half are on the Wiki taking Oregonian's nonsense seriously. (I am aware that the math does not add up there, but you typed "ad homonym", so I expect no pushback from you on that point.) So if you truly want to help the hunt and the people working on it, I don't understand the secrecy. If you want to solve them all by yourselves, that's fine too. It's the in-between that can get annoying, since while you may not be trying to act "high and mighty", that's how it comes off. Just my noob opinion. I like your posts Frisco. But I kind of like the idea of a casque-cracking SAS working in the shadows; that's fine too.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: I like your posts Frisco. But I kind of like the idea of a casque-cracking SAS working in the shadows; that's fine too. The romanticism fades a bit when Batman pops in your house occasionally to hand you a picture of a hubcap and tells you that if you were smarter, you could build a Batmobile.

After reading the PM you sent me, I've concluded Frisco, that you are just a dick...and yes that is an ad homonym attack, I have only so much patience and I was willing to discuss things with you...maybe shed some light on your misconceptions about some of us, but you're just an A-hole. Before I could even talk to you about anything you're calling my friends names, telling me you don't need my help, and asking me to tell you who I work with so you can alienate them also, Best of luck with the witch hunt Joe McCarthy.

Maybe the Chicago Water Tower and Buckingham Fountain are tied together in a geometric motif because both fit the control of water motif.

decibalnyc wrote:: After reading the PM you sent me, I've concluded Frisco, that you are just a dick...and yes that is an ad homonym attack, I have only so much patience and I was willing to discuss things with you...maybe shed some light on your misconceptions about some of us, but you're just an A-hole. Before I could even talk to you about anything you're calling my friends names, telling me you don't need my help, and asking me to tell you who I work with so you can alienate them also, Best of luck with the witch hunt Joe McCarthy. How could I alienate your group? I'm one person, and your group makes up, I'm guessing, a large percentage of active posters on this site. If anyone's being alienated, it's the few of us who aren't in your group. I apologize for rejecting your request to chat, but I really do think that we would have very little to talk about, given the limits on what you're allowed to say. I wouldn't have sent you a PM at all if you had not reached out to me. It's not a witch hunt--I asked who was in your group so that I, personally, could know who and who not to bother wasting my time trying to collaborate with. Sometimes I want to chat about things and I message a specific user so that we can do it real-time, since forums are slow. If I know who will and won't be able to talk to me, I can save both of us the bother. You already know which of us you can't talk to--why can't the rest of us know who isn't allowed to talk to us? It doesn't seem like an unfair request. I don't see why you're being so dramatic over what I thought was a fairly polite extension of what I've already said in this thread--I'm all cool with your exclusive group existing, but some of the "elite" group's interactions with the forum feel, to me, unhelpful and patronizing. (Not all--I've never seen a poor attitude out of Egbert, for example.) My "misconceptions" were formed solely based on direct interactions with individuals. How would your words speak louder than their actions? (By the way, it's "ad hominem". A homonym is something different entirely.)

Although the orientation of the Chicago Water Tower is upright for P5, the Terminal Tower in Cleveland is upside down and negative space, which suggests there is variability in orientation. When I look at Image 2, there are two clear landmark points: Fort Sumter and the map of Charleston. I think the scale of the map outline might be a rough but correct size relative to the jewel point. The Sumter point, like the CWT or the TT, is not to scale with respect to casque distance. Anyone want to try this with a prospect site and share?

erexere wrote:: Bringing the geometry/map convo to this thread. There seem to be some significant effort to roughly align landmarks on a map to some of the undisputed art elements, i.e. water tower=windmill, earring=fountain, etc. Well thats interesting but its basically meaningless unless it also can be shown in cleveland.

My execution earlier today hasn't panned out very well. The trial idea where I take 1) iconic landmark and 2) jewel position, and try to sync them together with a geometry that makes sense on the map isn't looking convincing. The part that works against the idea is there's no good indicator for North. When I take into consideration a word definition that is strongly connected to the target landmark, then I have a specific kind of characteristic that might be paired with some other image target. With the Terminal Tower the word "terminus", meaning "the end of an extremety or final point of something" or in architecture it's "a figure of a human bust or an animal ending in a square pillar from which it appears to spring, originally used as a boundary marker in ancient Rome." There is the figure of the sphere in the image and it's terminus or the place from which it springs is at the base. When I connect that point to the location of the jewel, I have a line that has approximately the correct slope as the line drawn on the map that connects the Terminal Tower to the Greek Garden. When I connect the base of the Terminal Tower in the image to the end point of the Centaur's tail, that slope matches as well. This works with the image flipped vertically,

The trouble with your sketch below is the map is definitely a point between two lines. however you arbitrarily picked the points on the image so that it matched your lines. you are forcing it. for instance why that spot on the terminal tower. other than it lines up with your other line

I chose the base point of the tower because that might qualify as a terminus in the sense that the the tower springs from that boundary of the painting. It qualifies as forced just as much as terminal vs terminus offers the instructional motif. Its radical and slim, but I'm not giving up on it yet. Thanks for the input.

decibalnyc wrote:: I am expanding on what became a more general post (after 3 sentences) than a direct response to Decibal(s image), and not necessarily Image 4 in the Image 4 thread, so I moved it here. What about Ohio? Kidding. This is good stuff. Had we not known this image was linked with Verse 4, and didn't know Image 8 was Verse 1, I think Verse 4 would possibly get you to think of Image 8. "Seek the Columns for your search". I've mentioned this about the depth of Preiss' trickery in prior posts, but if we abide by the current consensus, he's giving similar red herrings by burying a treasure in Charleston and then giving us a verse with the word "Citadel". If I may digress for a moment before I move on to my point about using the word "citadel", can I ask if the elite cadre that you are a part of, DecibalNYC, is operating under the framework of what is generally termed the "consensus" Image/Verse pairs? Back to Citadel, though. Think about it for a second. The Citadel is a pretty iconic institution for locals in Charleston, but I don't know how many people in 1980, or now for that matter, would know that The Citadel is in Charleston. If you're a local/east coast southerner, or a student of military history, yes, and reading the book for the first time, I think you would pick up on that word and make the connection. At that point, you still have 12 images to look at to try and find one that fits into Charleston. It took a lot of work to find the matches and connections that we just take for granted in Image 2 that makes it unquestionably Charleston. If you're picking up the book for the first time in the 80's, I think it's important to see what a big red herring this is if you're in the 1980's and Verse 5 isn't really Charleston. It would be an extremely calculated decision on Preiss' part to bury a cask in the city that is home to the CItadel and use that word in a verse that isn't connected to Charleston. There are many synonyms for "citadel" that could have been used, and many other cities than Charleston to bury a cask. Definitely a deliberate choice. (Side note from this specific post but something I'd enjoy discussing: The last lines of each clue and their importance. We have 2 solved where we know One being an image/verse connection in Verse 4's "seek the column", and from someone on the treasure ground a "backward" clue, in the order the directions are given. One being nearby landmarks that are also a "backward" clue with "Seek the Sounds..", which are also not literal sounds like what we assume are literal sounds in other verses where he mentions sounds. But yet the "still hear the honking" in Verse 9 is indeed a literal sound, but not the sound of a car horn like one would probably think at face value. Regardless, in Chicago and Cleveland, the specific dig spot is earlier in the verse. The last lines are more of a "you're getting very hot" type line. Verse 10, same thing. We know that the "Dauntless" portion of verse 11 is off a nearby monument, another "backward" clue. Rambling on this point and this isn't the main topic of this post, but something I'd like to discuss) My original point was referring to the deception about "seek the columns" which is both a treasure ground clue but also is a link in the verse to a specific image, but leaves it up in the air about which image, specifically, until you connect the dots. I'd appreciate any input. In terms of words in the verses that can link you to images at face value: "Land Near the Window" "Seek the columns for your search" "Twice as many east steps as the hour" "Fence and fixture central too" ? The more speculative: "At stone wall's door" - The porticullis in Image 1 "As the sound of friends fills the afternoon hours" - I've brought this up before, maybe nothing, but the theatrical mask covers (fills) the afternoon hours in Image 7

I think how one feels about the word "citadel" depends on the context they're most familiar with. I'm most familiar with the SC Citadel because of college sports. But without that, I'm not sure that I'd associate the word with the military college if I were familiar with the word in another context. BP, being a teacher and probably a student of history, may have come across "citadel" in its fortress context, and associated it more with that. Or it could be a literary reference. Are you considering a theory that links that verse to Charleston? Regarding the "afternoon hours" on the clock, the ones covered by the mask in Image 7 are not afternoon hours. "Afternoon" is typically 12-5pm. 6-8am is morning, and 6-8pm is evening.

Frisco wrote:: Regarding the "afternoon hours" on the clock, the ones covered by the mask in Image 7 are not afternoon hours. "Afternoon" is typically 12-5pm. 6-8am is morning, and 6-8pm is evening. And that was the exact same shut out I got when I suggested this as a connection before. I won't pitch it again.

Merlot Brougham wrote:: And that was the exact same shut out I got when I suggested this as a connection before. I like it, but I won't pitch it again.

Merlot Brougham wrote:: ("Look at these Plebes floundering around like beached fish. By the way what do you think of the Birds on the Ellis Island Ferry Building that none of us introduced into the hunt?" - The Super Secret Secret Society) What date is your plane flight booked for you son of a gun? e: changed my giant crescendo to "son of a gun" because of the women and children reading this thread, but before I did it was a reference to one's familial coitus.

TBD. I'm not against connecting the images to the verses in some way, I just can't figure out how 6pm in any way constitutes the afternoon. :p I think a better solution for how Image 7 connects to Verse 2 is "In the middle of 21". Across the street from Gallier Hall (on the block in the middle of 21 blocks of Lafayette Ave.) is the boy on the McDonogh statue. In Image 7, the tumor on clock boy's butt creates the number "2" in the negative space, and his arm forms the "1". 21 in the verse, 21 in the image.

Frisco wrote:: TBD. I'm not against connecting the images to the verses in some way, I just can't figure out how 6pm in any way constitutes the afternoon. :p Yet the 12th hour is still midnight?

Twenty-fourth hour or zeroth hour don't sound as poetic.

Based only on the LotJ and the image, I think it's possible to find a general regional location. Using "chaste" as a hint about moral conduct, and the letters G and h as a hint to reverse the image but also to think of initials G and H, we have Gates of Heaven/Hell. Failed moral conduct = Prison/Alcatraz and the gate on the image in the background looks like the best choice for a prison motif. Successful or good conduct = Heaven or crossing the Golden Gate which looks like the symmetrical shape bound between teh letters G and h. I think these two points are linked to the map and result in fixing the orientation of the table top/watch/rose as a corresponding location on the map for Lands End and the Palace of the Legion of Honor.

This is a progression of trials based on an idea that points of interest recognized in the Chicago and Cleveland are chosen for an important reason. Maltedfalcon is right that any two points might be arbritrary. Its not easy to prove one way or the other. Why did BP choose to use the Terminal Tower? A) its an iconic structure, widely recognizable in the Cleveland B) it begins a path of connected roadways leading to the treasure ground C) in the context of Greek columns, the word "terminal" has a specific application All of the above would apply to my recent trial. Terminus typically refers to the ends of a thing. When I drew my line connecting two points, I constrained my choice to the end of the centaurs tail and the bottom end of the tower. Does that meet the basic criteria for not being arbitrary?

Unknown: This is a progression of trials based on an idea that points of interest recognized in the Chicago and Cleveland are chosen for an important reason "Trials". Very appropriate choice. Carry on.

Renovator, is that a vote of confidence? Where I was going with things is a reference to the Greek God Terminus, a bust on a boundary stone seems like an archetypal fit to Image 4. See how this wiki article references a drawing of Terminus with a wall hanging from an archway like the Sword of Damocles... Terminus (mythological god) Does anyone agree that this might be a contribution to the Cleveland solve? The fairfolk or Nymphs of Hellas might've sought to honor this God of boundaries. I'm interested in extending this sort of fairfolk perspective to the other puzzles.

Unknown: A march or mark was, in broad terms, a medieval European term for any kind of borderland, as opposed to a notional "heartland". More specifically, a march was a border between realms, and/or a neutral/buffer zone under joint control of two states, in which different laws might apply. In both of these senses, marches served a political purpose, such as providing warning of military incursions, or regulating cross-border trade, or both. Here's another "spoke in the wheel" that I think builds into the Cleveland puzzle, The Aquamarine is the jewel for Cleveland (ignoring the sapphire debacle), and is the birthstone for March. A "march" is also a word used to describe a boundary, I think BP acted with purpose when he chose the Terminal Tower and leads the seeker to a rectangle bounded plot "beneath two countries". If you think about it, quite simply, two countries can't exist without a "march".

Unknown: Renovator, is that a vote of confidence? Unfortunately, no it's not. We have known for a long time why Preiss directed JJP to include the Terminal Tower in Image 4, and it's the same reason the Water Tower is in Image 5, and City Hall is in Image 8. In all three cases, the building confirms the city, and gives us a means to identify the park. Honest, it's no more complicated than that.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Unfortunately, no it's not. We have known for a long time why Preiss directed JJP to include the Terminal Tower in Image 4, and it's the same reason the Water Tower is in Image 5, and City Hall is in Image 8. In all three cases, the building confirms the city, and gives us a means to identify the park. Honest, it's no more complicated than that. I think there's an inaccuracy in your statement. What think of as confirmation on what specifically serves the purpose of confirmation of the city is still unverified.

So, I was reading through the new posts today and the usual garbage on here started to piss me off. Why can't we all just get along? Why do you all continue to kick at E, especially when all he is trying to do Is make sense of the puzzle, the same as the rest of us? I too have been aggravated by the constant postings and the Ever-retarded tangents that stretch from Oregon to the rice patties of China. At this point, I just can't imagine the boards without him (E), though. It's a cold dark forum without the chaos. Plus, I like to troll .

erexere wrote:: This is a progression of trials based on an idea that points of interest recognized in the Chicago and Cleveland are chosen for an important reason. Why did BP choose to use the Terminal Tower? A) its an iconic structure, widely recognizable in the Cleveland B) it begins a path of connected roadways leading to the treasure ground C) in the context of Greek columns, the word "terminal" has a specific application A&B make sense C is too vague to be likely as in A obvious B obvious C we have to explore deeper to fully grasp the meaning... I think the obvious ones are well.... obvious.

Wonder if all the locations draw the position of a Thirteenth Treasure? ;^) I mean, like a letter X with the center missing? Just "musing" at all the GREEK mytology leads -- like the locations where all the first Fraternal orders were started during those old colligiate days . . . Just musing . . .

While looking for meaning in the past evidence provided, I'm wondering if there's a systematic use of geometric lines that compliment each location. Here's what I'm considering for Chicago: I've highlighted a possibility where the Large Landmark of the iconic Historic Water Tower is essentially a "standpipe" and connects to this small vertical pipe along the fence at the treasure ground. I've also considered that there's some indication that the distance from the two objects in image, while on a single linear path, the transition where the line meets the lining of the giant's cap might be a division point between two segments that are proportionally fit to "10" and "13". I'd love to find some kind of relationship like this to the Cleveland puzzle.

Since I was only eyeballing the measurement for my previous post, I loaded up Gimp to use the pixel measure tool to test my theory that the ratio of line segments is 10:13. and So it comes at 630 pixels followed by 794 pixels. 10/13 = 0.77 630/794 = 0.79 So that's pretty close given the ratios differ by two-hundredths. Anyone using a standard ruler on that tiny book page would probably feel confident that the ratio checks out.

I find there's still something of a line slope from the top of the wall to the casque position indicated. The line connects the Large Landmark to the jewel in image. Thanks go out to Egbert for the pic and confirming that the casque was found in the viscinity of the highlighted portion of the planter.

Unknown: I've always entertained the idea that the "giant step" may not be in terms of feet from the pole, but in terms of elevation. We already know Preiss uses the term "step" In Cleveland to refer to a vertical step. Very interesting to me, in verse 8 he he uses "ascend the 92 steps" but uses "100 paces" for horizontal distance. We don't know if the 5 steps in Thucydides' direction are actual stairs or not, but for the sake of this theory, I hope they are. He specifically uses the term "paces" in verse 5. He does use "east steps" in Verse 10. I had an idea while I was typing out this portion of my post in the Image 1 thread. Since everyone who comes across The Secret thinks they're the first person to "reach out" to Palencar and the Widow Preiss and piss all over our Corn Flakes, I thought we might harass someone like Dr. David Van Nuys. I remember watching some videos he made a few years ago where he produced a psychological profile of the Zodiac Killer based upon the letters that were sent to various news outlets. Anyway, we already have 2 solves, and some other specific details/locations/literary references in the other verses. I've posted about it before, but I think Preiss deliberately wove certain similarities into the verses in order to make things a little challenging. I don't think it's a coincidence that in Verse 3 he mentions Thucydides and Xenophon who also appear on the same monument for the Image 4 solve even though they aren't related. I'm not sure if all three of "Socrates, Pindar, Apelles" are on the Boston Library, but I see Pindar after a very brief search. I think that's secondary to the point I'm making,. . Basically, I'm curious to know if anyone has ever gone about any kind of linguistic deconstruction of the verses like this, and whether or not anyone thinks this is even a legitimate line of inquiry. Please advise. My original point about SF was that we know enough to realize that Preiss attempted to be specific in the directions he was giving for most of the burial grounds, and I'm considering exploring deeper if anyone thinks there's merit. But we see him say things that are pretty definite like "At the base of the tree" or "Underneath that which is first seen...", " at 12 paces... get permission", even if we don't know specifically where they are, once we were to find that specific location (in the early 80's) it would seem like a definitive place which to dig. "GIant Pole, Giant Step" would be a 360 degree directional crap shoot.

[quote="erexere"]While looking for meaning in the past evidence provided, I'm wondering if there's a systematic use of geometric lines that compliment each location. Hi Erexere! This is my first post. I have not been around long. I just stumbled on The Secret recently so I won't burden you with all my thoughts that the rest of you have probably had for years. But I did want to tell you that your posts on the geometric lines has me very intrigued. Do you have any thoughts about this regarding the Charleston image? I realize that the casque maybe unrecoverable due to the hurricane, but if "geometric measurements" are hidden in the image it gives me hope that maybe it could be found. I will be in Charleston in the near future and would love your thoughts.

Hi gajojo,welcome to this forsaken community. I dont have enough confidence in the geometry idea to say its a sure thing. I havent considered the charleston location in a long while. I'll see what I can come up with and share soon.

Thanks Erexere! As I mentioned, I am new. Before I had read a lot of old posts, I had decided that the Charleston casque had to be in one of four or five places. I thought I would check out my theory when I am in Charleston just for fun. Then I found a post about the hurricane. Had totally forgotten about that. And then I found a post on another website where someone had already figured out my top choice and another one of my four ideas. So maybe it is lost. Or maybe we are missing something. As far as I can tell, the Charleston image does not have any blatant land marks drawn in it that identify a specific spot. I, therefore, surmised that the specifics would have to come from the verse. Once I saw that others have followed the verse and still came up empty handed, I saw your posts about the geometric lines. Could there be something in regard to where Fort Sumter is in relation to the diamond? Or the flat disk in the flower? Or the cannons in the moth with the crossed arms underneath it? It seems to me that BP would have put something specific in the picture like the fence in Image 5. Please let me know if I am missing the obvious. And thanks for your help.

I can't avoid the feeling that I'm picking and choosing arbritary points, so take this as an extremely loose attempt. I've imagined a lot of different approaches to this particular puzzle, but nothing really explains everything. The fact that the Charleston shape and Sumter are really prominent in the image makes it seem most likely that the casque is somewhere close to that geography, which makes my suggestion that the casque is buried on one of the islands near McClellanville a slim chance. I went with a 120 degree rotation on the image. That seems to match the angle between the two lines on the face of the Sumter necklace pendant. Interestingly, the diamond is now at the top of the image. Working with some line extrapolation, I see the diamond and the pear now share a vertical axis and the pendant and the eye of the lion seem to connect. When I draw that line and look at the rough boundary of the coast it seems to have some similar elements with the painting. It's all a rough visual, so I'm not overly excited. It's very hard to expect the painting to act as an overlay to a map. There's too many creative elements being bunched together to know what makes any one thing an anchor. Right now I'm willing to consider the jewel on the page as a location relative to something else as a line angle correlation such as suggested by the Cleveland or Chicago examples. That too is a loose theory, since it's possible that although it might work for 2 solves, it doesn't necessarily mean it works for any others. We simply don't know if Preiss uses a uniform method or an improvised approach from one to the next. My work suggests that there's a thematic connection to the LotJ. Africa's earthborn diamond connects to a bright harvest. That seems to be a nice lead to draw a line to connect the diamond and the center of the pear (harvesting fruit seems like a simple enough idea). If the eye of the lion connected to the Sumter pendant are to be correlated to a map, then I'm interested in anchoring it to the Sumter location and perhaps using the relative size of the Charleston mainland to establish relative scale. Preserving the slope of that line shows that a Sumter to Cape Romaine is a consideration.

Another line of interest might be the one connecting Drum Island as depicted on the mask to the jewel. If my guess is right, then the drum barrel (water cistern) next to the old lighthouse is a being hinted out by the faint outline of a curved object next to a tower. I'm thinking the pendant shaped like Sumter is also a good hint for a shovel. Surely someone has thought of this before. Methodologically speaking, I think some geometry helps pick a general location on a map, and the same or some other geometric element locates the jewel once identifying the main anchor/perspective to the site.

I just realized my last reply did not post. Thank you for looking at this for me. The intelligence in the community is amazing and I love reading everyone's posts. A few of you should be working for NASA. Heck, maybe you do!! In regard, to the flower, the flat disk and the curved petal do not seem random. Do you think that the casque may not be buried in White Point Garden?

WPG is the recommended location according to several seekers, but I think the pros dont outweigh the cons. Hop on over to the Image 2 or verse 6 thread and continue the discussion there.

At least one former member *does* work for NASA.

I am not surprised at all!

Here's an update on how I've most recently been working on the puzzles. LLF vs SSF. I think there's a Large Landmark Feature relating to each Fair Folk puzzle that connects in some way to a Small Subtle Feature. In Chicago, this was the Historic Water Tower (standpipe), which is linked to a small vertical pipe at one end of a 10 foot section of fencing. The verse uses the word "Hush" to represent it's last line. I think the reason relates to an idiom for hushing people who are making too much noise, "pipe down!". In Cleveland, I think the Terminal Tower represents a Classical Greek architectural motif where an object or statue is presented at the top of a column, ledge, or pedestal as it is interpreted as if it were "springing" forth. Notice how the sphere sculpture can be used as the terminus in this case to FTS (find the slope) or point to the 10th stone which marked the casque position, (I should explain that I've flipped the sphere horizontally to reflect the perspective of looking at the wall from opposite side from where the columns are located)

erexere wrote:: Here's an update on how I've most recently been working on the puzzles. LLF vs SSF. I think there's a Large Landmark Feature relating to each Fair Folk puzzle that connects in some way to a Small Subtle Feature. In Chicago, this was the Historic Water Tower (standpipe), which is linked to a small vertical pipe at one end of a 10 foot section of fencing. The verse uses the word "Hush" to represent it's last line. I think the reason relates to an idiom for hushing people who are making too much noise, "pipe down!". In Cleveland, I think the Terminal Tower represents a Classical Greek architectural motif where an object or statue is presented at the top of a column, ledge, or pedestal as it is interpreted as if it were "springing" forth. Notice how the sphere sculpture can be used as the terminus in this case to FTS (find the slope) or point to the 10th stone which marked the casque position, (I should explain that I've flipped the sphere horizontally to reflect the perspective of looking at the wall from opposite side from where the columns are located) Since at the time Digital photography, and photoshop was not available to anybody to expect this to be done by anybody seems unlikely, remembering especially BP considered this to be an easy hunt. Too obtuse a clue. it doesn't seem at all likely

What about this looks like an endorsement for the required use of digital manipulation? I am suggesting that a person hold up the physical page of book and recognize the wall, columns, and note the position of any objects positioned on any horizontal surfaces: the urns. Substitute the sphere for an urn and anyone should be able to mentally picture the placement and direction indicated in relation to the picture.

erexere wrote:: What about this looks like an endorsement for the required use of digital manipulation? I am suggesting that a person hold up the physical page of book and recognize the wall, columns, and note the position of any objects positioned on any horizontal surfaces: the urns. Substitute the sphere for an urn and anyone should be able to mentally picture the placement and direction indicated in relation to the picture. I tend to agree with you e... i think it may just require a simple play on words... if you can't figure out what it is, try-angles!

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I tend to agree with you e... i think it may just require a simple play on words... if you can't figure out what it is, try-angles! I bet that one kills at "The Secret" conventions.

Dont forget to bring your finger puppets if thats the kind of convention you're into.

erexere wrote:: What about this looks like an endorsement for the required use of digital manipulation? I am suggesting that a person hold up the physical page of book and recognize the wall, columns, and note the position of any objects positioned on any horizontal surfaces: the urns. Substitute the sphere for an urn and anyone should be able to mentally picture the placement and direction indicated in relation to the picture. yes exactly that above. people wouldn't do that,

Unknown: Code: Select all ride  (rīd) v. rode (rōd), rid·den (rĭd′n), rid·ing, rides v.intr. 1. a. To be carried or conveyed, as in a vehicle or on horseback. b. Sports To participate in a board sport such as snowboarding. 2. To travel over a surface: This car rides well. 3. To move by way of an intangible force or impetus; move as if on water: The President rode into office on a tide of discontent. 4. Nautical To lie at anchor: battleships riding at the mouth of the estuary. 5. To seem to float: The moon was riding among the clouds. 6. To be sustained or supported on a pivot, axle, or other point. 7. To be contingent; depend: The final outcome rides on the results of the election. 8. To continue without interference: Let the matter ride. 9. To work or move from the proper place, especially on the body: pants that ride up. v.tr. 1. a. To sit on and control the movement of: rode a motorcycle to town; ride a horse to the village. b. Sports To glide or move while standing on or having one's feet attached to (a board, such as a snowboard). 2. To travel over, along, or through: ride the highways. 3. To be supported or carried on: a swimmer riding the waves. 4. To take part in or do by riding: He rode his last race. 5. To cause to ride, especially to cause to be carried: The police rode him down to the station. 6. Sports To control (an opponent) in wrestling, usually by holding the opponent down. 7. Nautical To keep (a vessel) at anchor. 8. Informal a. To tease or ridicule. Serious question. Has anyone here taken a good look at The First Crazy Word Book: Verbs, by Byron Priess (1982)? I very glad to own a copy. The reason I ask, is that it's an extremely simple exercise to turn a few pages and know exactly where Byron Priess is coming from. In that book, he's not trying to disguise or hide anything. He's being perfectly honest in his intentions to bring a small collection of verbs to the beginner reader. The focus and attention he devotes to each single verb is truly amazing. I know I've got ahead of myself one to many times when taking an alternate approach to various words and their usage in the verses, but I think people can make the mistake of dismissing the actual possibilities that exist when considering the alternatives. I'm not saying The Secret is as simple as looking at the example of the First Crazy Word Book: Verbs, but I do think it's a simple effort to where idiomatic or alternative usage might exist. Byron Preiss actually makes the this particular claim in the preface of the First Crazy Word Book: Verbs. So that's a small fact to consider and that's why I approach the Secret as I do. Take the example from Verse 11 and Image 3: "Ride the man of oz". We typically think of the word "ride" as it would apply to transportation. The dictionary expands our options: Here, option (8a) tells us that "ride" can be used as to mean "to tease" or "to ridicule", and as such I explored a slightly different context for the line in how "ride" relates to the "man of oz". I think the cleverness of the line requires that we include two meanings, both "to travel" and "to ridicule", because I believe the "Roanoke" puzzle is strongly influenced by the Wizard of Oz, given that the Baum name is historically attached to the region and the connection we're meant to make is to the Wizard's hot-air balloon as it translates to the First Flight of the Wright Bros. for the purpose of this puzzle. The part of the balloon in which one would ride is the basket. I even wonder if the spherical balloon carrying a cube shaped basket is the parallel to "circle and square", but that's probably another case of me getting ahead of myself. I think there's ample opportunity for Preiss to have researched the general history of the coastal area in NC and once digested, he came up with an idea to take Baum/Wizard of Oz and play on the First Flight's history. He looked more closely at that history, included words from the Wright Memorial itself, and designed a puzzle that fit the Fair Folk of England's garnet by linking the rescuers of the HMS Mirlo disaster on August 16, 1918. Six surfmen of the Chicamacomico Life Saving Station heroically rescued the Englishmen from the burning wreckage after being struck by topedo from a German U-boat. All six men belonged to the family with the surname, Midgett. Life Saving Station workers were also involved in the First Flight when Daniels, Etheridge, and Dough joined a lumber merchant named Brinkley and a 16-old kid named Johnny Moore to witness the Wright Brothers success. There continues to be a connection to riding a basket if we consider the July and August Wreck Pole drills by the US Coast Guard.

Theres no schizophrenia here. Just some leisurely attention to the subject material. Some insomnia. Some beer. Some trolling whenever the urge to be stupid as a rock dislodges a person who might otherwise be helpful to the cause. The point is the fact that the First Crazy Word Book: Verbs represents a case where Preiss supplied the words and hired an artist to represent each verb in its various forms. Its an effort to be clear as possible in contrast to the Secret where he has written words, hired an artist, but makes the effort to be as tricky as possible. Its really cool to see his mastery over words play out in different ways.

It's possible, albeit unlikely, that we could learn something from seeing Preiss' other works. Think about looking at JJP's artwork outside of The Secret -- once you've seen a bunch of it, you learn what aspects might be stylistic idiosyncrasies and probably have nothing to do with The Secret. For instance, if many of his works had glowing blue outlines, or colorful panels that look like color-blindness tests, those features in his paintings probably have no significance for The Secret and can be discounted. In theory the same could be done for Preiss.

On one hand, I'm making a point of admiration for Preiss' mastery of words and how he achieves a very plain goal with absolutely nothing left up to confusion. Kids get a primer of common verbs and that's it. On the other hand, I'm not as sure as you that it's "unlikely" we could learn something to help us in the Secret, which I believe is largely a test of our judgement of words. I spent a great deal of time looking at this puzzle in an exaggerated way. More and more I came to realize there's a difference between far afield ideas which are based on exaggerations in word meaning and far afield ideas that are based on actual word meanings. The simple fact: some definitions are just less common or informal. I'm sure there's many words in the verses that are meant to be understood in their plainest sense, but I strongly believe it takes only a few well-chosen words and cases of subtle meaning to create these puzzles that we're still struggling to understand. I now believe there's no exaggeration or stretch of the imagination to aid us in solving these puzzles. A look at Preiss' simple primer on verbs has me convinced that he knows how to choose exactly the right words to meet his purpose. Having learned that, I think it's likely that one reason we're not making progress is that we have failed to check our natural inclination to see only the most common word meanings.

forest_blight wrote:: Think about looking at JJP's artwork outside of The Secret -- once you've seen a bunch of it, you learn what aspects might be stylistic idiosyncrasies and probably have nothing to do with The Secret. For instance, if many of his works had glowing blue outlines, or colorful panels that look like color-blindness tests, those features in his paintings probably have no significance for The Secret and can be discounted. Good point actually - never thought about doing that. First thing I hit up in Google image search... Pretty Secret-esque in ways. Admit it, you're looking for lat/long clues in those wrinkles already...

Why discuss JJPs artistry to that degree when its been largely established that he didnt design the puzzles or write the verses? The point of discussion that I introduced was about the way in which Preiss uses words. In one case, the Verbs book, he is being straight forward, and in the Secret he has a different goal. There are some uncanny similarities. Whether that has anything valuable to offer is up for debate, but simply saying its unlikely that we would discover anything helpful isnt much of an argument. Talking about JJPs artistry in the same way doesnt support the argument, though it does bring attention to the obvious generalities. As for the specifics, if you've looked at the Verbs book, you'll see how it maps 12 verbs to the 12 month calendar and it illustrates various creatures in settings focused on each. A thirteenth verb is added, Im not sure why, but it reminds me of the 13 fair folk tribes story. At the end of the Verbs book is a list of all the creatures that can be spotted in each particular verb setting. Its fun to see how similar the structure is for this other 1982 Preiss publication. As for its usefulness, Im not inclined to say its useless to our considerations. You can judge for yourself after having a closer look or without looking at it at all, you can act like you have a solid argument for a point thats not actually being presented. When I took a closer look at the April month sertting for the verb "look", I liked how Preiss had the artist draw two cases for the words "look out" and "look out!". In the first case he presents a panther sitting inside a hut, looking out a window. In the second case he has a porcupine trying to avoid a charging elephant. In the May setting for the verb "ride" he portrays several modes of transportation and includes an old locomotive with its whistle blowing. A hippo dressed as a traffic cop is also blowing a whistle. Its hard to not connect these details with verse 1 in the Secret where "the number nine eight two" or "a whistle blows", but I think these coincidences dont really bear any fruit.

erexere wrote:: Why discuss JJPs artistry to that degree when its been largely established that he didnt design the puzzles or write the verses? Because this is the Methodology Discussion forum. And JJP did have a hand in designing the puzzles. He even suggested one of the sites. I would not be surprised if Preiss wrote his Verses with input from JJP, or modified them in response to having seen the Paintings. Here's how I imagine the Roanoke puzzle being discussed: BP: "I hid a casque in Roanoke." JJP: "Great idea! Hey, I know, I'll paint a little picture of Roanoke Island next to a window." BP: "Oo, good one! I'll add a reference in the verse that reads 'the land near the window'." JJP: "Brilliant!" I was actually trying to support your point that we can learn by looking at other works by the same artists (Preiss included). I guess I wasn't too clear. Saying that it is possible but unlikely is a lot more support than your ideas typically receive around here. Yes, absolutely, it's possible that we can learn something from Preiss's other works. But how much of The Secret did Preiss actually write? Certainly he wrote the Verses and headed up the project, but what else did he actually pen? It was a collaborative effort, and we are instructed that the Verses are the only text we need to attend to. But what else from his oeuvre would be informative about his poetry and riddles? Not much, I would argue. Nevertheless, I like the parallels you draw between the Verbs book and "The Secret." I would even buy a copy, if it didn't cost $2500 on amazon.com (I'm not even kidding). Any chance you could scan and post the book for us? On the other hand, JJP has given us a lot of work since 1982, and work that is of the exact same sort (paintings and drawings), but minus the treasure-hunting elements. If we examine all of his work -- and again, there is a lot -- we can see what elements P1-P12 share with that other work and dismiss those elements as irrelevant. Perhaps some of the elements that remain are relevant to The Secret. To be completely clear: I'm taking your point about Preiss and saying it is a good idea in principle, and that we can apply it to JJP's artwork with even greater effectiveness.

Wow. $2499.99 to be exact. Thats a crazy price. I picked up my copy about a year ago for next to nothing. I envision a different conversation between Preiss and Palencar. JJP: why must I draw Roanoke if you didnt bury a casque there? BP: shut up and draw what I tell you. JJP: yes, master ...

Here's some previews of the Verbs book: hxxp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/ ... zkxqsa.png hxxp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/ ... hrkp35.png hxxp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/ ... eyvlds.png hxxp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/ ... o9y39v.png hxxp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/ ... yfrh8k.png hxxp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/ ... qeoudo.png hxxp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/ ... fb1eh5.png hxxp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/ ... mirj75.png hxxp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/ ... icli9o.png hxxp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/ ... ghauod.png

Thanks!

I like the JJP pictures idea. In the photo posted by WhiteRabbit, we see the same divots in the wall that we see in the Roanoke image. In fact, the walls look very similar. This would tell me that most of the divots and cracks in the wall in the Roanoke image are just there for decoration. Let's look at some more....

I am not sure if it is safe to get in the water, but I can't believe that I am the only one that is happy that a few of you long-termers are posting comments this week. Sane comments, schizophrenic comments, what you had for lunch comments are better than logging into the dead zone. And since I am convinced that the only way to find other casques is to understand BP's methodology, I love reading anyone's ideas to that prompts others to think and respond. So Thanks! I feel like I am the new kid at school asking if I can sit down at the popular kid's lunch table. (Of course, this is a school where the popular kids are all in the math and science club, so ya'll are a little intimidating.) But if I may ask, is there a list of all the places where people have dug and come up empty handed. I have not seen that kind of thread. Just wondering if I have missed it. It would be helpful if there was one.

There is no popular kid's table here -- we're all unpopular. Anyway, "On the internet nobody knows you're a dog" (--Peter Steiner). There are nearly 2 x 10^14 square feet in Canada and the contiguous 48. We've dug up a few of those, but it's always possible we didn't go deep enough, or that we missed it by a few inches. So I'm not ruling out anything (except Juneau Park in Milwaukee -- that's just crazy talk!).

forest_blight wrote:: ...it's always possible we didn't go deep enough, or that we missed it by a few inches. Been thinking a lot about this lately...do we really think that 1.5-2' down would not be deep enough to see/feel the box? How about in different (warmer/colder locations)? Missing the box altogether is another issue in itself...

Method: find examples to demonstrate how the author and artist create words and pictures. Possible result one: eliminate their usual styles and assume the anomalies are due to puzzle constraints. Possible result two: assume their usual styles are exactly how they would present puzzle clues. I don't think we can be certain of either outcome without an external example of a different puzzle. We really don't know how either the author or the artist might or might not intensify or alter their non-puzzle styles in service of a specific puzzle goal. The Secret was a one-off, for both of them, and I'm afraid we're taking stabs in the dark in either direction with such analysis. But if you're asking my opinion, I agree that we can say that artistic flourishes (like blue glowing edges) are not specific clues. In the same fashion, and only if you want my opinion, the author's appreciation for obscure definitions would not be how he would write a puzzle hunt meant to be simple and fun and quickly solved, precisely because he would know just how obscure those unusual readings would be.

To a degree, there are examples of obscurity in the literary references. While it doesnt seem necessary to recognize their sources, I wonder if its helpful nonetheless. I think Preiss had a gift for employing these strange references in very creative ways. Whether his puzzles were made to be simple as reported, I dont think we have enough to go on. As for obscure word definitions, I think catherwood is correct in her judgement. Each time Ive looked too narrowly at the etymology of a word it would result in rabbitholery. Alternate word definitions, or uncommon word usage shouldnt be categorized as obscure.

Unknown: do we really think that 1.5-2' down would not be deep enough to see/feel the box? See? That depends. But it's easy enough to probe the empty hole completely to make sure there isn't something substantial in the vicinity, which cuts down somewhat on the uncertainty. The question is what exactly are we probing for? If Preiss didn't bury the northern casques (four remaining) below the frost line (averaging about 36"), then it's a good bet that after 35 winters, we are looking for pieces of ceramic and plexiglass instead of intact boxes. And a probe is more likely to miss that. IMO, the likelihood of finding an intact box, even after 35 years, is much greater for the 6 southern casques, all other things being equal.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: ... it's a good bet that after 35 winters, we are looking for pieces of ceramic and plexiglass instead of intact boxes. And a probe is more likely to miss that. IMO, the likelihood of finding an intact box, even after 35 years, is much greater for the 6 southern casques, all other things being equal. Possibly the most true, logical statement I've read in weeks.

forest_blight wrote:: So I'm not ruling out anything (except Juneau Park in Milwaukee -- that's just crazy talk!). Not ruled out until its found somewhere else!

I've grown to understand that I've never truly understood this puzzle and neither has anyone else. I'll leave it to the Chicago or Cleveland finders to argue any differently. It wasn't completely accidental that they found casques, and they deserve all kinds of credit for their diligence and contribution, but as far as understanding the puzzles go, I don't think so. They have explainations and some direct responses by Preiss tell us some particulars, but on the whole, should we really say they understand the methodology? Perhaps someone does, or perhaps someone is close to pulling a casque, but as I understand it there is one main dynamic/divergence in our process: as we work any puzzle we are constantly faced with choosing an approach based on how we think a puzzle works, but until sufficient evidence is produced, we don't know for certain how that the puzzle is designed. Has anyone here taken part in the Historical Hunt? hxxp://www.historicalhunt.com/ I don't know how some people get their answers, but I found it very difficult to make progress after a certain point. One thing it has taught me is that there's a lot of resources out there and learning to peruse news articles, cemetery records, and pay attention to the most minute details is a skill that transcends the simple act of performing a search on Google. So as I try to make progress with the Secret, I find myself trying hard to understand the symbol imagery for each painting and address the scope that Priess would've expected his audience to have in a pre-internet era. He didn't just challenge us to research small details, he challenged us to pay attention to what he was doing, how he uses his words, his every verb, participle, and tense, his proper or lack of proper noun capitalization, or an opportune idioms or punctuation. Understanding his process through the veil of art and poetry is extremely challenging. For now, we can only hope we're getting the point and there's a good enough piece of evidence to support some convergence enough that we see a clearly defined digging opportunity.

To date, for the remaining puzzles, the "methodology" seems to be... 1) subjectively interpret the image, find some subjective matches 2) subjectively interpret the verse, find some subjective descriptions of objects/places 3) find a place nearby that subjectively satisfies the vague-as-fuck dig direction lines 4) dig as many fucking holes as you can near that place 5) come up empty 6a) dig bigger holes 6b) return to #1 6c) resign that the casque or #3 is gone Does this seem problematic? Does anybody else believe we should be able to know we are right BEFORE we have a casque in hand, or is it just me?

There is no avoiding the subjectivity issue. How BP thought his directions would make sense is just one hurdle, while JJPs artistry (was it his or BPs idea to reverse some of the image elements?) is another. Then we have the issue with selecting the correct P# V# pairing. The effects of time are the least of our problems. The range of difficulty, BPs concept of an easy puzzle (Chicago/Cleveland?) and his concept of a hard puzzle (???) is something else to consider. I think there are tricks in the verse and image to be detected that might never be guessed unless the person is totally on the right track, standing in a place where BP once stood. Until such discoveries are made for certain (hopefully not coincidental) we shouldnt be digging holes at all. Take my NOLA example for a dig spot. I dont have verification of any of my guesswork, but if it were the correct spot after all, then I'd expect some detail in the image to lend itself to that sense of certainty or confidence that its shovel time.

erexere wrote:: Until such discoveries are made for certain (hopefully not coincidental) we shouldnt be digging holes at all. erexere wrote:: Take my NOLA example for a dig spot. I dont have verification of any of my guesswork, but if it were the correct spot after all, then I'd expect some detail in the image to lend itself to that sense of certainty or confidence that its shovel time. First off, the sanity exhibited in your post, e, is refreshing. Kudos. Let's keep this going. I'll ask a few questions and make a few notes myself ... I'll tell you this... I used to proffer theories left and right, and I dug A LOT of holes to go with them, only to come up emptyhanded. A buddy of mine just spouted off the other day that he was "through digging holes big enough to drop a body into." We both agree, however, that knowing where the casque ISN'T is complementary information to knowing where the casque IS. Digging so many empty holes seems to teach one how the puzzle doesn't work, and allows one to funnel focus on alternate ways it might work. Do you really think we shouldn't be digging, rather we should just keep proffering theories? How would you ever know if your theorie(s) were/are right or wrong? We are just supposed to keep stacking them on the shelf? It's a catch-22. One of the biggest problems, IMHO, is that people are so resigned to thinking the casques or the clues (at least in the way they think they should be interpreted) are gone. Go to the bottom of the ravine in Milwaukee... stare at the water... No letter, no country, no fifth, and no evidence those things were ever there. Go to the overlook in Roanoke... stare at the water... No "that," nothing to be under, nothing last touched or first seen, and no evidence those things were ever there. Go to the Prayerbook cross... stare at the water(fall)... No object of twain's attention, no giant pole or step, no evidence those things were ever there. Go to the middle of the Children's Zoo... stare at the fountain... No four alike, no small/split/three winged/slight, no evidence those things were ever there. Go to Mothers' Rest or Charlestgate... rinse and repeat, et al. Does it ever seem like we are "overlooking" something? And, it's not even that we lack any evidence of what we think "those things" should be, it's that the "things" we think we should be looking for are everywhere. We can envision those things as being most anything at any site we think we end at. There is seemingly no specificity like there was in Cleveland in any other puzzle, rather the verses get more vague, more playful, more whole-city encompassing. Trying to dig with that sort of ambiguity makes little sense. If you are 30 inches off, you might as well be 30 feet off, or 30 miles. What would make you think that? Cleveland and Chicago? Does anything else that worked in Cleveland or Chicago seem to hold true in the 10 other puzzles? Better question might be, does anything in Cleveland and Chicago seem NOT to hold true? At a certain point, it makes one say, "Fucking shit. What the f**k?" But then, if you drop solution-bias, it can also provide an opportunity to focus back on the basics... Forget the verses and the images and the lines and the clues for a minute, get big picture... There's a puzzle. The puzzle is to find 12 locations a casque is hidden, each in the US or Canada. There is a million square miles where each one could reside. We need facts to figure out where one resides, not subjectivity.What's the first thing we would need to know to begin funneling down where one might be?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: ... I used to proffer theories left and right, and I dug A LOT of holes to go with them, only to come up emptyhanded. A buddy of mine just spouted off the other day that he was "through digging holes big enough to drop a body into." We both agree, however, that knowing where the casque ISN'T is complementary information to knowing where the casque IS. Digging so many empty holes seems to teach one how the puzzle doesn't work, and allows one to funnel focus on alternate ways it might work. Do you really think we shouldn't be digging, rather we should just keep proffering theories? How would you ever know if your theorie(s) were/are right or wrong? We are just supposed to keep stacking them on the shelf? It's a catch-22. Hirudiniforme wrote:: One of the biggest problems, IMHO, is that people are so resigned to thinking the casques or the clues (at least in the way they think they should be interpreted) are gone. Go to the bottom of the ravine in Milwaukee... stare at the water... No letter, no country, no fifth, and no evidence those things were ever there. Go to the overlook in Roanoke... stare at the water... No "that," nothing to be under, nothing last touched or first seen, and no evidence those things were ever there. Go to the Prayerbook cross... stare at the water(fall)... No object of twain's attention, no giant pole or step, no evidence those things were ever there. Go to the middle of the Children's Zoo... stare at the fountain... No four alike, no small/split/three winged/slight, no evidence those things were ever there. Go to Mothers' Rest or Charlestgate... rinse and repeat, et al. Does it ever seem like we are "overlooking" something? Hirudiniforme wrote:: if you drop solution-bias, it can also provide an opportunity to focus back on the basics... Forget the verses and the images and the lines and the clues for a minute, get big picture... There's a puzzle. The puzzle is to find 12 locations a casque is hidden, each in the US or Canada. There is a million square miles where each one could reside. We need facts to figure out where one resides, not subjectivity.What's the first thing we would need to know to begin funneling down where one might be? Well said (when penis jokes aren't being dropped) lol. "Edison-approach". Overlooking, possibly. Dug/tried? Do we even know? This is the problem I have with (I'll call them) "traditional" (the more widely accepted, earlier theories), and the more chaotic "new age" theories....of all of the original, straight-forward theories put out there in the early 2000s (and prior to this forum), were those all dug and ruled out? My first inclination is that these are not to be some fringe-science experiment to have to solve them, they should work as one-off interpretations of the clues, just like Cleveland and Chicago. Once that is established, then the dig spots/parks/cities even, could be opened up and widened to entertain a broader range of ideas. This, I have no problem with. I'd just like to know from a more logical, organized way of "checking off" the theories (i.e organizing the Edison approach). I know y'all think there is a method, and there should be one (THE) hole dug, but in reality, it isn't going to happen-you and I both know this. This is what we have to work with. True, not random, chaotic theories, and reasons why we think things should work. A degree of subjectivity is absolutely involved. "Ten by thirteen" wasn't degrees, it was rows of trees. So yes, there will be that degree of interpretation based on whoever is thinking about the current line of verse. It's just, where do we draw that line in our mind that the level of interpretation has gone too far. Once the person is "there" in their mind, they either got there by using confirmation bias, or are using confirmation bias to reinforce their own theories and they go further down the rabbit hole. (Hah, I like 'solution-bias') At any rate, that's where I'm coming from and what I'm working on... And to answer your last question, coordinates.

Accordi g to Egberts reported conversation with Preiss in 2004, "Ten by thirteen" was not rows of trees, it was 10 feet by 13 feet.

erexere wrote:: Accordi g to Egberts reported conversation with Preiss in 2004, "Ten by thirteen" was not rows of trees, it was 10 feet by 13 feet. Being that we all know that not to be the case (i.e., it was trees), just marinate on what that means for a few.

tjgrey wrote:: Overlooking, possibly. Dug/tried? Do we even know? This is the problem I have with (I'll call them) "traditional" (the more widely accepted, earlier theories), and the more chaotic "new age" theories....of all of the original, straight-forward theories put out there in the early 2000s (and prior to this forum), were those all dug and ruled out? tjgrey wrote:: My first inclination is that these are not to be some fringe-science experiment to have to solve them, they should work as one-off interpretations of the clues, just like Cleveland and Chicago. tjgrey wrote:: Once that is established, then the dig spots/parks/cities even, could be opened up and widened to entertain a broader range of ideas. This, I have no problem with. I'd just like to know from a more logical, organized way of "checking off" the theories (i.e organizing the Edison approach). tjgrey wrote:: I know y'all think there is a method, and there should be one (THE) hole dug, but in reality, it isn't going to happen-you and I both know this. tjgrey wrote:: This is what we have to work with. tjgrey wrote:: A degree of subjectivity is absolutely involved. "Ten by thirteen" wasn't degrees, it was rows of trees. So yes, there will be that degree of interpretation based on whoever is thinking about the current line of verse. tjgrey wrote:: And to answer your last question, coordinates. From personal experience, yes, the traditional theories have been dug/tried. That being said, the most common conclusions are that 1) the casque is gone; 2) the final marker is gone; or 3) the hole wasn't big enough. That seems to be everybody's first inclination (as well as second, and third, and fourth...). How's that workin' out? It's called digging. Who's "y'all?" And, why isn't "it" going to happen? How's the one-off clue interpretation method working out? Seems like the clues just keep casting a wider and wider net as they get vaguer and more ambiguous. Keep accepting that, then. I happen to be of the opinion that there is more to work with. While this does seem to be the case on the surface, I'm not so sure. You remember when BP was quoted as saying he had to tell people he had been to every city when asked at parties, because he "couldn't let anyone rule out any possible locations" ("I always have to say, 'Yes, yes. I have and I enjoyed it'")? You remember when BP told Brian he "got all the clues?" Would BP have told him if he hadn't? Remember, we KNOW that Brian hadn't. What can you conclude given the fact that BP didn't share/show the additional "clues" that solved that single puzzle? Why did he give no indication that they existed? What reason would he have NOT to share the clues of a solved puzzle if each puzzle was standalone? So, you mean, the first thing we would need to start narrowing down land, we were given in no uncertain terms? Hmmm. That doesn't seem so "subjective."

Byron's Problems: 1) which jewel is in each painting? 2) which poem works with each painting? 3) how does the visual evidence support a general locale? 4) how do the lines/words bring attention to the setting for a casque? At least we have all of #1 worked out.

erexere wrote:: Byron's Problems: 1) which jewel is in each painting? 2) which poem works with each painting? 3) how does the visual evidence support a general locale? 4) how do the lines/words bring attention to the setting for a casque? At least we have all of #1 worked out. 5) how do I narrow down the land area from half a continent to a square foot?

Unknown: 5) how do I narrow down the land area from half a continent to a square foot? Which half?

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: Which half? The top half of North America.

I'd like to see how any or at least one of the puzzles might be constructed to fit something as simple as a 2-directional system where A and B are anchored to specific visual clues that would easily be perceived as a method for reaching a point of intersection that is the quintessential treasure ground (C).

Unknown: I'd like to see how any or at least one of the puzzles might be constructed to fit something as simple as a 2-directional system where A and B are anchored to specific visual clues... I believe that this is exactly how the Chicago casque was buried. One row of marker trees going N/S and one row of marker trees going E/W. Extend those lines and stand on the spot where they intersect, and you were standing over the casque. Or at worst, within a few feet of it owing to the fact that the trees were not in a perfectly straight line, so the intersection was not a simple point, but an area of about 3'x3". People who have been on site say that this interpretation is supported by the location of the remaining trees as it relates to the spot where the Chicago group said they dug the final, successful hole.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I believe that this is exactly how the Chicago casque was buried. One row of marker trees going N/S and one row of marker trees going E/W. Extend those lines and stand on the spot where they intersect, and you were standing over the casque. Or at worst, within a few feet of it owing to the fact that the trees were not in a perfectly straight line, so the intersection was not a simple point, but an area of about 3'x3". People who have been on site say that this interpretation is supported by the location of the remaining trees as it relates to the spot where the Chicago group said they dug the final, successful hole. R, I believe that is what E was getting at. Rather than stifle his further examination of the topic with a paragraph that says, "Duh," I will simply welcome him to the party of logical questioning and trial and error. It's a good party to be at. Keep up the questions, E. Proffer broad similarities and try to show how they are constant or or not, even without knowing the actual solutions for certain. Additionally, you may not want to start at the point of digspot when developing these hypotheses, rather at the point of start. Don't get ahead of yourself too fast. Start big, funnel down.

Thats basically all Im thinking for the moment. Ive withdrawn from overthinking wherever possible. I dont know enough about Cleveland or Chicago to really feel the sense of certainty I would need to expand more particular ideas that would migrate to other location specifics.

erexere wrote:: Thats basically all Im thinking for the moment. Ive withdrawn from overthinking wherever possible. I dont know enough about Cleveland or Chicago to really feel the sense of certainty I would need to expand more particular ideas that would migrate to other location specifics. No disrespect with the below to you E... mad props, but.... To the board, YOU'RE WELCOME!!! Thank you for putting up with my chatter with E for the past couple weeks. I hope you all got something out of it as well (I'd love to hear if/when you do - privately or shared on the forum). I've also asked as many questions as I am "allowed" to at this point; so, until next year... ...Four21 out.

Curses. I've dreamed two nights in row that I dug up a casque.

Supposing one or more casques are near or not far away from flag poles, what are some different ways to hint for that occurrence? In Image 6 we have a flag standard being held in the hand of a Spanish explorer, which is the easiest, most straightforward example. In Verse 9 we have the line "stars move by day" which can mean a lot of things, but can easily be a flag which according to custom would be raised at sunrise and lowered at sunset. Another line "I can still hear the honking" also seems to me a hint for bugle calling such as Reveille. Verse 7 we have a couple lines "Education and Justice / For all to see", reminiscent of the words in the Pledge of Allegiance which in San Francisco seemed applicable to the giant pole, the Betsy Ross Memorial Flag Pole that once stood at the Palace of the Legion of Honor. Verse 8, in what seems impossibly cryptic has me wondering if "from woman, with harpsichord" is sharing the thought that the design of the first US flag is believed from Betsy Ross, but actually from a harpsichord player, Francis Hopkinson. Of course none of these are yet proven, but I imagine Preiss would want to avoid saying "near a flag" if he thought things would be too easy and so I wouldnt be surprised if a casque ends up being found near a flag.

Revisiting this thread. How do people think these puzzles work? As far as I can tell, maltedfalcon had one major fix in suggesting the "iconic path" approach, which does a good job finding the one correct visual landmark and then letting the verse guide you quickly through the most direct route possible to the treasure ground. I feel there's a major riddle to help guide us in each puzzle, largely to do with the approach one would expect each respective fair folk to work into their plan. For the nymphs of Hellas, I found some evidence to suggest looking for an urn. That doesn't really help lead us to a place, but it works to confirm if you believe Preiss made a point to bury the casque between those two poet urns in Cleveland's Greacean Gardens. I think the fairies depicted in image 3 make a point of proudly bearing that flower in the bubble, carrying it through the air. The iconic feature is the water tower just south of Roanoke leading to a spot near the window of a building where coast guard practice carrying people from a replica ships mast. In Boston, I think it's all about the Tax Burden and how that is perceived when standing at the gates of the Somerset. When you consider the fair folk there may have seen Paul Revere as that guiding light against the oppressive Tea taxing Brits. The $$, symbols may be inferred when seeing the two SS letters for Somerset (the name of a Brittish Man-o-war) centered on a vertical barred gate. It's important to jump through the hoops Preiss envisioned. So, what do people think those hoops are?

Agree. It's also a way to get even more lost...

As proud as he would've been after setting this hunt in motion, I wonder if Preiss felt bad about some of the places he hid casques. Thinking most would be solved and a few might never be found...only because he hid them in really questionable places.

Has anyone done a deep analysis of the Chicago and Cleveland puzzles? What I would like to know specifically is whether there are multiple confirmed a with twist. I mean 2 or even 3 objects that can take the same meaning. For example, the helmet on the centaur. Looks like a hill, a dome, a cup if you flip it over, etc. Applying this thought to an unsolved puzzle like SF, could something like a giant pole mean 2 or more "poles" in the same area as reinforcement? Or the globes in Boston being street lamps, features in a park, a newspaper box, etc.

gManTexas wrote:: What I would like to know specifically is whether there are multiple confirmed a with twist. Its my opinion (and there are others that would argue with me) is that no, there are no twists, double meanings or deeper connotations.

gManTexas wrote:: Has anyone done a deep analysis of the Chicago and Cleveland puzzles? What I would like to know specifically is whether there are multiple confirmed a with twist. I mean 2 or even 3 objects that can take the same meaning. For example, the helmet on the centaur. Looks like a hill, a dome, a cup if you flip it over, etc. Applying this thought to an unsolved puzzle like SF, could something like a giant pole mean 2 or more "poles" in the same area as reinforcement? Or the globes in Boston being street lamps, features in a park, a newspaper box, etc. I'm in the Chicago area. I think there may not be any visual clues that can have a dual meaning. But, the first two lines of the verse can have dual possibilities, that lead you to the general area in Grant Park where the Lincoln statue is... Where M and B are set in stone Obscure interpretation: Mozart and Beethoven. Easy interpretation: Man and beast .... that's a better (if not wrong) interpretation, considering that The Bowman statue is right there, around Congess Parkway, near Buckingham Fountain....and, it's in the image. That area is a main entrance to Grant Park. And to Congress, R is known Congress is just plain ol' Congress Parkway....but, could have referred the Pick Congress Hotel, which was (is?) nearby on Michigan Ave. R is known..... Roosevelt University is there....but, that has you looking away from the park. (West of Michigan Ave.). Instead....there are R ailroad tracks East of the Bowman. That draws you into the park.....walk past the tracks and a bit north, there's the statue of Lincoln. Go further North and you're in the section of the park where the casque was found.

I'd like to talk about dualities. I think JM posed the notion in the first Shhhh.... the secret podcast (which is turning out amazing, btw) that it seemed like Preiss did a lot of things twice. Like having two images that are arched, and using a letter to represent a last name in exactly two verses. You know me, I've designed my share of puzzles over the decades, many of them for money (I made most of the puzzles for Telltale Games' Puzzle Agent 2). While I can't speak for Preiss, I can say there have been exactly three reasons why I've included a "same solution works for two puzzles" in my larger works: 1. I felt that the puzzles had very unclear starting points. With a duality theme, people can try applying other solved puzzles to try to get a grip on a new one. 2. I got exhausted, and wanted to reuse puzzle solves for ease. However, clients would never stand for that, so I make it a "theme." Now slacking off just looks like an intricate part of puzzle planning. 3. It was just coincidence. When you make puzzles in huge batches such as the ones The Secret required, it's natural for an author to reuse elements. Some elements Preiss reused more than twice, some have been used 11 times. It's like looking at pi and saying "whoa, there are infinite 2's. That must mean something!" That said, it might be #1. In that case, I'd like to start a list of things that happen exactly twice in the puzzles. Please add to the list and/or refute anything erroneously reported as occurring exactly twice. ALSO, feel free to name any common puzzle solving techniques that we have noticed used exactly once in The Secret, so we can try to find their counterpart. DUALITIES: Rebus: Bellflower and Milwaukee Arched images: 1 and 12 Triangle with a dot in it: 1 and 11 Using an initial to represent a person in verse: Verses 10 and 12 Abroad in America references: Verses 2 and 6 Complete state outlines: 4 and 5 Birds: Images 11 and 12 Palm tress: 2 and 6 Columns: Images 4 and 8 Faces paired with clocks: 2 and 8 Clocks not paired with faces: 1 and 12 Castles: Images 5 and 11 Fairies: Images 2 and 11 Women with long thin smocks: 1 and 11 Two interlocked hands with weird positions: 1 and 9 Acrostics: Verses 9 and 5

I like breakdown into categories or puzzle methods. The duality concept is loosely what I like to apply the term intermezzo which helps use a motif from one puzzle as a n insight to another. For example, the verse that uses the word giant may take inspiration from P5, the giant with a castle for a hat and lead us to a conclusion that involves some castle like location for verse 7. Acrostics are a really simple puzzle/cryptographic method. I think V4 uses Socrates, Pindar, Apellas as a way to suggest a bath house or natural spring idea, S-P-A. It doesn't really make sense given the wall and dirt plot, but maybe it will make sense if we use that to link with the Nymphs of Hellas aquamarine, spring water clear. Verse 10's "Of him of Hard word in 3 Vol." Could be a O-H-V or just H-V initials for something.

I have been working on finding certain features that match across the Images for a little bit, and I feel reasonably confident to say that I believe that the blue highlights have significance. My theory is that the heavy blue highlights are map overlays. The lighter blue highlights are object matches. I believe that JJP was instructed to include map features into the illustrations and for some reason, maybe BP thought it was not prominent enough, the highlights were then enhanced when the book went to print. Couple of cases where this seems to be a really good match: Image 8 - Houston The Djinn and water spout are Hermann Park and Brays Bayou. The left side of the water spout also looks like Buffalo Bayou. This sets some boundaries in Houston: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kc6xjn8bk0i90 ... n.jpg?dl=0 If we look at the columns and Djinn with water spout. The rhino on top of the column is Hermann Park: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tf3mb199gol2v ... o.png?dl=0 The column with the globe on top is arguably the Reflecting Pool and Sam Houston monument in Hermann Park. These three items give us a rock solid location of where we should be searching. Image 11 - Boston I believe the five globes are five features in Boston Common. I also believe that the box that she is opening is the area of Fenway and the Back Bay Fens, with the lid being Beacon Street, with the hinge at Kenmore Square. Image 1 - Golden Gate Park We have obviously the outline of the park. Also within the Image I believe that many other overlays exist. For example, her face and the pearl could be the Great Meadow and the fountain located just near it. To me, the rose looks to be a good overlay of Twin Peaks. There are potentially a ton of other matches that I have not identified yet. Image 6 - St. Augustine We have the most obvious of outlines in the shape of Florida. Also, the top of the mountain looks almost exactly like Pine Island which is just north of St. Augustine: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1r61qnrg382co ... m.png?dl=0 The horse on top of the mountain appears to have features which match the barrier islands or strips of land on the coast near St. Augustine. The trunk of palm tree that casts no reflection may be the Bridge of Lions and the top is the neighborhood that you would cross into heading east. The palm could also just represent the giant cross at the Mission. Image 12 - NYC The bottom of her dress looks to be Brooklyn. Her arms appear to form some of the outlines of Prospect Park. The bird's head is a very good match for these trails near Lookout Hill in the park: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cn3wifxqy00dt ... m.png?dl=0 Out of the remaining Images, Images 7 (New Orleans) and 9 (Montreal) do not appear to have blue highlights. Images 4 (Cleveland) and 5 (Chicago) I have not studied enough, however there are definitely map overlays in Chicago. Image 2 for Charleston, I am still working on that one. Image 10 for Milwaukee, I have not spent much time at all, but it seems like any easy match up, especially with the area near Lake Park. Image 3 for Roanoke. Some really observant user on the Wiki identified that the knight's right arm matches the coastline near Roanoke Island, running from Hatteras to the Potomac. I could also see the left arm as being an extension of that and running all the way up to north of Baltimore. One of the issues with Image 3 (like Image 1 and 11) is that so much is highlighted, it becomes difficult to pick out features that map. As far as object matches goes, this is where is get difficult. For Golden Gate Park, we can see an outline of a cable car in the table leg. It was just recently that someone posted that there was an actual decommissioned cable car in the park. While still debated, the swirl of the rose stem appears to match a few objects in the park. If we look at Image 10 (Milwaukee), there is a fainter outline around the cape, and what appears to be features of trees, etc. Again, I have not studied Image 4 (Cleveland) but the highlights around the Centaur seem to be lighter, and may point to some object(s) near the location. Note: I have not determined if the lack of blue highlights rules out whether there are map overlays hidden in the Images. This primarily pertains to Images 7 & 9. So, my theory is this: 1. Each Image contains longitude and latitude clues. Where they do not, there is a rebus or other identifiers. 2. The Images contain map overlays. This points you to the specific area of the city where you should be looking. Where there are no overlays (blue highlights), there is enough information to get you to the correct city. 3. The Images contain object overlays. This narrows down the area once you have determined the specific park or area to be searching. Most likely this is a visual clue that must be observed on the ground. 4. The verses, once matched, walk you through the steps of the solution, reinforced with visual clues from the Images. 5. The Litany of the Jewels helps match us with Immigration clues to the various cities and historical information. 6. The Vanishing and The Passage to the New World gives additional clues that can help with historical information. 7. A Field Guide to the Fair People of the New World contains mostly extra stuff, but there appears to be some extra clues. At this time (early in my research) is seems to help mostly with identifying potential cities, possibly redundant to finding the coordinates located within the Images.

gManTexas wrote:: I have been working on finding certain features that match across the Images for a little bit, and I feel reasonably confident to say that I believe that the blue highlights have significance. My theory is that the heavy blue highlights are map overlays. The lighter blue highlights are object matches. I believe that JJP was instructed to include map features into the illustrations and for some reason, maybe BP thought it was not prominent enough, the highlights were then enhanced when the book went to print. Couple of cases where this seems to be a really good match: Image 8 - Houston The Djinn and water spout are Hermann Park and Brays Bayou. The left side of the water spout also looks like Buffalo Bayou. This sets some boundaries in Houston: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kc6xjn8bk0i90 ... n.jpg?dl=0 If we look at the columns and Djinn with water spout. The rhino on top of the column is Hermann Park: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tf3mb199gol2v ... o.png?dl=0 The column with the globe on top is arguably the Reflecting Pool and Sam Houston monument in Hermann Park. These three items give us a rock solid location of where we should be searching. Image 11 - Boston I believe the five globes are five features in Boston Common. I also believe that the box that she is opening is the area of Fenway and the Back Bay Fens, with the lid being Beacon Street, with the hinge at Kenmore Square. Image 1 - Golden Gate Park We have obviously the outline of the park. Also within the Image I believe that many other overlays exist. For example, her face and the pearl could be the Great Meadow and the fountain located just near it. To me, the rose looks to be a good overlay of Twin Peaks. There are potentially a ton of other matches that I have not identified yet. Image 6 - St. Augustine We have the most obvious of outlines in the shape of Florida. Also, the top of the mountain looks almost exactly like Pine Island which is just north of St. Augustine: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1r61qnrg382co ... m.png?dl=0 The horse on top of the mountain appears to have features which match the barrier islands or strips of land on the coast near St. Augustine. The trunk of palm tree that casts no reflection may be the Bridge of Lions and the top is the neighborhood that you would cross into heading east. The palm could also just represent the giant cross at the Mission. Image 12 - NYC The bottom of her dress looks to be Brooklyn. Her arms appear to form some of the outlines of Prospect Park. The bird's head is a very good match for these trails near Lookout Hill in the park: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cn3wifxqy00dt ... m.png?dl=0 Out of the remaining Images, Images 7 (New Orleans) and 9 (Montreal) do not appear to have blue highlights. Images 4 (Cleveland) and 5 (Chicago) I have not studied enough, however there are definitely map overlays in Chicago. Image 2 for Charleston, I am still working on that one. Image 10 for Milwaukee, I have not spent much time at all, but it seems like any easy match up, especially with the area near Lake Park. Image 3 for Roanoke. Some really observant user on the Wiki identified that the knight's right arm matches the coastline near Roanoke Island, running from Hatteras to the Potomac. I could also see the left arm as being an extension of that and running all the way up to north of Baltimore. One of the issues with Image 3 (like Image 1 and 11) is that so much is highlighted, it becomes difficult to pick out features that map. As far as object matches goes, this is where is get difficult. For Golden Gate Park, we can see an outline of a cable car in the table leg. It was just recently that someone posted that there was an actual decommissioned cable car in the park. While still debated, the swirl of the rose stem appears to match a few objects in the park. If we look at Image 10 (Milwaukee), there is a fainter outline around the cape, and what appears to be features of trees, etc. Again, I have not studied Image 4 (Cleveland) but the highlights around the Centaur seem to be lighter, and may point to some object(s) near the location. Note: I have not determined if the lack of blue highlights rules out whether there are map overlays hidden in the Images. This primarily pertains to Images 7 & 9. So, my theory is this: 1. Each Image contains longitude and latitude clues. Where they do not, there is a rebus or other identifiers. 2. The Images contain map overlays. This points you to the specific area of the city where you should be looking. Where there are no overlays (blue highlights), there is enough information to get you to the correct city. 3. The Images contain object overlays. This narrows down the area once you have determined the specific park or area to be searching. Most likely this is a visual clue that must be observed on the ground. 4. The verses, once matched, walk you through the steps of the solution, reinforced with visual clues from the Images. 5. The Litany of the Jewels helps match us with Immigration clues to the various cities and historical information. 6. The Vanishing and The Passage to the New World gives additional clues that can help with historical information. 7. A Field Guide to the Fair People of the New World contains mostly extra stuff, but there appears to be some extra clues. At this time (early in my research) is seems to help mostly with identifying potential cities, possibly redundant to finding the coordinates located within the Images. How well do these theories stand up against the two known images from Cleveland and Chicago?

I like the general aim of looking for compatible fits to those ideas but not the sort that are cherry picked.

erexere wrote:: I like the general aim of looking for compatible fits to those ideas but not the sort that are cherry picked. Not sure where this is directed. Can you elaborate?

Sorry for not elaborating. Being critical isn't my strong suit. I don't like the idea of grasping for matches without well supported reason for looking at a particular monument, structure, or road way shape. I basically don't see good reasons for the various profiles being discussed. Could be I'm just being blind...

erexere wrote:: Sorry for not elaborating. Being critical isn't my strong suit. I don't like the idea of grasping for matches without well supported reason for looking at a particular monument, structure, or road way shape. I basically don't see good reasons for the various profiles being discussed. Could be I'm just being blind... Sorry erexere, I'm still not following you, but I can take a shot at answering. This is not grasping at straws or matches at all. When I first started looking at the Images, I asked myself, why are some of these outlined in blue? Then, a short time later, I said, duh, because they ARE outlines. Two major easy supporting examples, Florida and Golden Gate Park. I think we can all agree on this. The way I see it, BP gave us some easy puzzles and some difficult ones. Chicago and Cleveland were very descriptive and easy. The rest, not so much. However, in doing so, he let us form connections and set the rules for this hunt. While I do not believe that every puzzle is the same or will be solved the same way, there are some basic rules here. Additionally, I think some people share the concept that BP and the people he hired, did not have an endless amount of time or resources to make each puzzle so vastly different that by virtue of solving one, you would still come up empty handed for the rest. We also have to consider that there is a common narrative that ties all of these together. Disclaimer: I have not had enough time to go through each and every Image with maps and other resources to decipher all of the overlays, so I apologize if that appears to be grasping or cherry picking. I only found the Houston matches about a week or so ago. There is a lot of information to digest in this hunt, especially across 12 Images, 12 Verses, 12 locations, and 36 years. Not to mention all of the historical research required to understand some of these. However, if we focus on one or two of the Images and look at the maps of the area in question, certainly we can see how things overlay. Boston is a great example. The reason I bring this up is that there are a bunch of people working on these puzzles, individually and collectively. This may spur someone to have a Ah-Ha moment. Now, even if we solve all of these and recover most of the casques, we will still never know. That's the tough part. We cannot talk to BP and ask the questions. Maybe, just maybe there's a manuscript out there and when the last puzzle is solved, it will be released. "How I did it" by Byron Preiss. I doubt it. So we push on and try to dissect this thing, hoping that we are on the right path. I could be wrong. I'm okay with that. I'm not trying to get on a soapbox or anything. I just think this could be helpful. Then again it may not help. If the maps only get us to where we already suspect the casques are, then there is no additional value. If we see something and it makes someone say, "Wait, that looks really good. I know that area. I've suspected it for a while.", then maybe it's worthwhile. I'd encourage everyone to look at the highlights and see what jumps out. Spin a map around, line things up. By the way, I don't remember a case where I had to mirror an image or distort anything to get a match. Only rotation. Also, it may not be a 100% perfect match, and you can see on the Images where sometimes the blue will end abruptly. Also, I believe some portions of the highlighted areas map to certain things, but adjacent highlighted areas can map to something completely different in the same general area, for example, part of the Image may be a shoreline, yet, another part that is connected is a park not on the shoreline. I believe Chicago is done that way. As for Chicago and Cleveland, it's tough to study those because honestly, there will be no reward of treasure. Also, the way in which they were "solved" leaves some things unanswered. I suppose it will take going through the whole puzzle(s) and walking them backward to see what comes of it.

I wouldnt know what exactly drives the right inspiration for each puzzle. I would like to see a foundation built on the big ideas first and then collect the small pieces of the puzzle to fill out the details of the treasure ground. There's some subtlety to each painting that encourages us to look more into a particular shape, so I agree with some of that approach. I just want more adoration to be based on a vital or central point. The wall in Cleveland. The fence in Chicago. The letters in Boston. The wood in Houston. ??

erexere wrote:: I wouldnt know what exactly drives the right inspiration for each puzzle. I would like to see a foundation built on the big ideas first and then collect the small pieces of the puzzle to fill out the details of the treasure ground. There's some subtlety to each painting that encourages us to look more into a particular shape, so I agree with some of that approach. I just want more adoration to be based on a vital or central point. The wall in Cleveland. The fence in Chicago. The letters in Boston. The wood in Houston. ?? Yes, I agree and have maintained that the answers will occur on the ground. The right person, with the right eye, will see that connected element.

drunknerds wrote:: I think JM posed the notion in the first Shhhh.... the secret podcast (which is turning out amazing, btw) that it seemed like Preiss did a lot of things twice. Like having two images that are arched, and using a letter to represent a last name in exactly two verses. drunknerds wrote:: 1. I felt that the puzzles had very unclear starting points. With a duality theme, people can try applying other solved puzzles to try to get a grip on a new one. 2. I got exhausted, and wanted to reuse puzzle solves for ease. However, clients would never stand for that, so I make it a "theme." Now slacking off just looks like an intricate part of puzzle planning. 3. It was just coincidence. When you make puzzles in huge batches such as the ones The Secret required, it's natural for an author to reuse elements. Some elements Preiss reused more than twice, some have been used 11 times. It's like looking at pi and saying "whoa, there are infinite 2's. That must mean something!" I liked this idea very much at first, but I think it's not going to be a significant contributing factor to what really moves us forward in solving the next puzzle(s). This is great thinking, only Preiss seems to be using his talent for words and lore in such an expert way that people can only hope to get lucky to wrap their heads around a puzzle, let alone find the obscure references which may or may not be needed to pull off a brute force dig of an area that fits at least some of the clues. Like you say in #2, I think there's a backbone to this puzzle that ultimately makes easy sense out of a batch effort approach. Starting with the LotJ, we know for certain which painting goes with which culture because the line couplets identify each jewel, which has been included in each painting. Furthermore, I maintain that a well chosen word in each couplet precisely identifies with some specific motif applicable to his unique solve for each setting. I can't make a strong case for this yet with just Chicago and Cleveland. I've tried too hard in the past to uncover the intricacy of this approach and failed, because it's not meant to be so complicated. Chicago's "cold morning green" is in my best guess a clue about money, because "green" is his loose association word to identify with money, which in slang or idiom terms referred to as "cold hard cash", "greenbacks", or just "green". To help this idea along further, we have the qualifier of a cold morning. If I were to describe a morning that was cold as Nuuk, Greenland in the month of May, then I'd be talking about George Washington or Thomas Jefferson, since the average morning temperature in May is just 1 or 2 degrees. In Chicago, that number is about 50 or 51 degrees, thus we're talking about this guy, Cleveland's "spring-water clear" has eluded me in terms of clarity. One idea I have is that it quickly associates with the Socrates, Pindar, Apelles line as S-P-A, of the derivation from a mineralized water or word for "fountain" in the Walloon language. I think Preiss wanted to capture the setting of nymphs playing in a bath. The way idioms and origins work, however, doesn't seem like an especially good way to lead us towards a solution, although it looks fine from a big picture or retrospective view.

gManTexas wrote:: 1. Each Image contains longitude and latitude clues. Where they do not, there is a rebus or other identifiers. 2. The Images contain map overlays. This points you to the specific area of the city where you should be looking. Where there are no overlays (blue highlights), there is enough information to get you to the correct city. 3. The Images contain object overlays. This narrows down the area once you have determined the specific park or area to be searching. Most likely this is a visual clue that must be observed on the ground. 4. The verses, once matched, walk you through the steps of the solution, reinforced with visual clues from the Images. 5. The Litany of the Jewels helps match us with Immigration clues to the various cities and historical information. 6. The Vanishing and The Passage to the New World gives additional clues that can help with historical information. 7. A Field Guide to the Fair People of the New World contains mostly extra stuff, but there appears to be some extra clues. At this time (early in my research) is seems to help mostly with identifying potential cities, possibly redundant to finding the coordinates located within the Images. Its hard to disagree with most of what you have hear, I just think it's easy to misinterpret the value of each idea complementing each puzzle. There's so much uniqueness and mental/visual gymnastics at work that we're often overlooking the real gold or Preisstial Punch, or singularity.

erexere wrote:: There's so much uniqueness and mental/visual gymnastics at work that we're often overlooking the real gold or Preisstial Punch, or singularity. But alas, that is The Secret.

Here's another go at colour-matching the new footage (left) with the old scans (right).

Many of the thoughts shared on these boards continue to be blunt tool approach. I'm not judging whether anyone is right or wrong and I'm not commenting on the semantics of saying "solved". I just wonder why very few people talk about how a particular clue is expected or justifiable based on a whever proposed framework the puzzle represents. I often preach would contexts would be derived from a Folk Folk perspective. Man, one that is good enough, is the target audience for each puzzle. Is there some lesson or trick insight that is especially attractive or purposeful to that Fair Folk? Is Boston all about messages? Is it about memorials to war? Is it about T&Xation? Is it about American Revolution? What memorials or locations are supported by their justifications?

Cleveland's "spring-water clear" has eluded me in terms of clarity. One idea I have is that it quickly associates with the Socrates, Pindar, Apelles line as S-P-A, of the derivation from a mineralized water or word for "fountain" in the Walloon language. I think Preiss wanted to capture the setting of nymphs playing in a bath. The way idioms and origins work, however, doesn't seem like an especially good way to lead us towards a solution, although it looks fine from a big picture or retrospective view.[/quote] I grew up and Cleveland and one of the biggest jokes we Clevelanders have to dispel is the one about the river catching on fire in the late 60s. People still talk about it like it happened two days ago. Perhaps he's making a point about it finally being clear of industrial waste?

Apropos of nothing, I was thinking about how it's very unlikely Preiss used an obscure definition in any of the verses. My logic goes like this: Preiss loved words. As such, he was undoubtedly aware of the misconception that the dictionary defines what words mean. In fact, the dictionary just reflects how a word is being popularly used. It's not like the dictionaries said "okay, we're going to make up this new definition for "tweet"" and then Twitter said "great, we will use that word." So, knowing that dictionaries only cite how words are being used, it would seem counterproductive to use an archaic definition. Because that would mean it's a tough puzzle because not many people know that definition, BUT the reason why not many people know that definition is because people don't use that definition commonly. In other words, a linguist would know that a seldom-used definition is a weak definition, and wouldn't want to highlight a word usage that might be on the way out. So, I strongly feel that, although a puzzle solver might see an obscure definition as a valid part of a solve, I think a linguist would definitely want to avoid that. Instead I think that a linguist would favor simply using a common alternate defintoin (like "brush" meaning paintbrush not another kind of brush)

the line with the greeks, each name brings you to a different place.

I find it interesting to look beyond any coincidence to gain perspective on how carefully thought out any actual solution might've been designed. Given the LotJ line "cold morning green" for the May puzzle, I think it's entirely possible a highly creative process may have it's role in the puzzle solving process. Instinctively we would shy away from anything that doesn't fit our idea for what's simplistic or straight forwards.

Use the KISS method when solving theses puzzles. The books target audience was probably teenage American boys not Nobel laureates or philosophers looking for deep meanings in archaic languages. You may need to dumb yourself down to the level of a teenager.

Would it be safe to say the final visual clue to the location of the casque is shown near the center of the images. ie the fence in Grant park and the concrete planter box in Cleveland ?

erexere wrote:: Many of the thoughts shared on these boards continue to be blunt tool approach. I'm not judging whether anyone is right or wrong and I'm not commenting on the semantics of saying "solved". I just wonder why very few people talk about how a particular clue is expected or justifiable based on a whever proposed framework the puzzle represents. I often preach would contexts would be derived from a Folk Folk perspective. Man, one that is good enough, is the target audience for each puzzle. Is there some lesson or trick insight that is especially attractive or purposeful to that Fair Folk? Is Boston all about messages? Is it about memorials to war? Is it about T&Xation? Is it about American Revolution? What memorials or locations are supported by their justifications? ask yourself, from where are the fair folk derived...what is Preiss doing in the rest of the book?

You might ask yourself.... "Where did I go wrong? Was it my first step, or my second, third, etc?" We would expect knowing the right pairing is the first step. Then it would be getting the right State/city/lat-long/historic event to take you to the next part of the puzzle. Some insight into the theme or Fair Folk trick would probably help you discern the remaining collection of clues, possibly not so much steps as they are congruencies for someone to build up a bit of gist for getting warmer in the process. Lastly, you look at a site and see lots of options before you, but which really makes the best sense for where to dig?

Let's talk about the relative value of the gems and the complexity of each puzzle. I believe it was stated at one point that the more valuable the gem, the more difficult the puzzle would be. I tend to agree, with some caveats. Thanks to drunknerds for originally putting together this first list: Approximate values of gems 1 (SF) - Pearl $200-$500 each 2 (Charleston) - Diamond $1,000-$20,000/kt 3 (Roanoke) - Garnet $500-$2000/kt 4 (Cleveland) - Aquamarine $100-$300/kt 5 (Chicago) - Emerald $500-$1100/kt 6 (St. Augustine) - Sapphire $1000-$2000/kt 7 (New Orleans) - Turquoise <$500 /kt 8 (Houston) - Ruby $300-$3000/kt 9 (Montreal) - Opal - ~ $1000/kt 10 (Milwaukee) - Amethyst Like $50/kt. 11 (Boston) - Peridot $50-$400/kt 12 (New York) - Topaz $200-$1500/kt My interpretation of the order. In order of relative complexity of puzzles 4 (Cleveland) - Aquamarine $100-$300/kt 5 (Chicago) - Emerald $500-$1100/kt 10 (Milwaukee) - Amethyst Like $50/kt. 7 (New Orleans) - Turquoise <$500 /kt 1 (SF) - Pearl $200-$500 each 11 (Boston) - Peridot $50-$400/kt 8 (Houston) - Ruby $300-$3000/kt 9 (Montreal) - Opal - ~ $1000/kt 12 (New York) - Topaz $200-$1500/kt 6 (St. Augustine) - Sapphire $1000-$2000/kt 3 (Roanoke) - Garnet $500-$2000/kt 2 (Charleston) - Diamond $1,000-$20,000/kt Discuss

I dont know about this jewel value thing. We expect images to contain visual evidence of nearby visuals. Whether its an whole outline, a negative space shape, or some reduced percentage of partial contour of some object, like just half of a shape, those things will certainly pop into perspective once we find the right scene as it wouldve been in 1982. The verse introduces so much more complexity. Boston might be the least complex given the admission for the Japanese edition. Any hint at all wouldve given it away? Seems like he thought it was easier than the others. The quote from Melville's Piere-the Ambiguities popped into his mind for some reason. Perhaps that is to become a question for the puzzle worker: identify the quote source, and then figure out why it was selected. It seems evident that Preiss is using a highly symbolic scheme to identify method-centric ideas that apply to how to orient the perspective on the dig spot. Also, not all lines are equal, so it becomes really challenging testing or hypothesizing for each line. Everytime he mentions rain or water in the sky, I want to translate that into a roof, gutter, cistern or something which directly interacts with rainfall. The riddles themselves in the verses add extra complexity too. Maybe the value of a jewel has more to do with the scarcity for that fair folk's cultural link. Africa is a big producer if diamonds, so maybe that brings the value down a notch compared to some of the others. I just dont know how to get a read on a value comparison yet.

erexere wrote:: I dont know about this jewel value thing. We expect images to contain visual evidence of nearby visuals. Whether its an whole outline, a negative space shape, or some reduced percentage of partial contour of some object, like just half of a shape, those things will certainly pop into perspective once we find the right scene as it wouldve been in 1982. The verse introduces so much more complexity. Boston might be the least complex given the admission for the Japanese edition. Any hint at all wouldve given it away? Seems like he thought it was easier than the others. The quote from Melville's Piere-the Ambiguities popped into his mind for some reason. Perhaps that is to become a question for the puzzle worker: identify the quote source, and then figure out why it was selected. It seems evident that Preiss is using a highly symbolic scheme to identify method-centric ideas that apply to how to orient the perspective on the dig spot. Also, not all lines are equal, so it becomes really challenging testing or hypothesizing for each line. Everytime he mentions rain or water in the sky, I want to translate that into a roof, gutter, cistern or something which directly interacts with rainfall. The riddles themselves in the verses add extra complexity too. Maybe the value of a jewel has more to do with the scarcity for that fair folk's cultural link. Africa is a big producer if diamonds, so maybe that brings the value down a notch compared to some of the others. I just dont know how to get a read on a value comparison yet. I like this. You know, I've wondered why this thread is not the most popular. Everyone wants to rush into the image and verse threads, but there is little discussion regarding methodology. Before I comment more on the value of the gems, I'd like to hear some more people's thoughts on it.

gManTexas wrote:: Before I comment more on the value of the gems, I'd like to hear some more people's thoughts on it. Gem value is dependent on too many variables in my opinion. Monetary values are dependent on the size and quality of the gems. We haven’t the slightest clue of those details with the remaining gems. So how can we really set a ranking order of monetary value without that information? Desirability is relative. Part of these puzzles and associated gems are related to a month. Someone (like in Egbert’s case) may want to solve a specific puzzle because the gem corresponds to their birthstone. My wife, on the other hand, would only have interest in the diamond puzzle (self-explanatory)... What are you trying to establish with this process? Since Boston and NY (just examples) seem to be harder puzzles, so their gems are of higher size and quality because their specific gems are lower on the precious gem food chain? Personally, the most valuable gem to me would be the Peridot. The only reason why is it happens to be part of the puzzle that corresponds to the city I walk aimlessly around each day.

BINGO wrote:: Gem value is dependent on too many variables in my opinion. Monetary values are dependent on the size and quality of the gems. We haven’t the slightest clue of those details with the remaining gems. So how can we really set a ranking order of monetary value without that information? Desirability is relative. Part of these puzzles and associated gems are related to a month. Someone (like in Egbert’s case) may want to solve a specific puzzle because the gem corresponds to their birthstone. My wife, on the other hand, would only have interest in the diamond puzzle (self-explanatory)... What are you trying to establish with this process? Since Boston and NY (just examples) seem to be harder puzzles that their gems are of higher size and quality because their specific gems are lower on the precious gem food chain? Personally, the most valuable gem to me would be the Peridot. The only reason why is happens to be part of the puzzle that corresponds to the city I walk aimlessly around each day. I agree with what you are saying, and for a while I speculated that the Pearl in SF was out of this world expensive because that puzzle drove me crazy. I am thinking in more general terms, the valuation of gems like street value for a given size. We assume that Turquoise is less expensive than a diamond or sapphire. Not taking into account the desire to solve a particular puzzle or a birth month, the list should be relatively straightforward. Now, since I have to run off for a bit, I think that Roanoke is one of the most difficult puzzles based on both the puzzle itself and the Garnet. For centuries, Garnets were considered the most expensive and sought after gems. The gems of royalty. It fits with the time period that the Colony at Roanoke existed. Garnets today are very cheap. So yes, perceptions change over time, but have been relatively static for the last 100 years or so. This begs the question, if the value is an indication of complexity, do we use 1981 values or the relative values based on the time periods of the immigration?

regardless of current values or past values The complexity of solving the puzzles today probably has no relation to the complexity of solving the puzzles in 1981 as each site has undergone many changes over time. there is no possible way to estimate complexity, based on missing or changed ground features. clues that have moved or simply disappeared orreferences that have been obliterated by time. perhaps the most complex puzzle is the least changed and the simplest no longer even exists. While an interesting tidbit and a fact that BP said the puzzles vary in complexity with the value of the jewels. It is also a fact BP was atrociously awful at estimating puzzle complexity and how long it would take for a puzzle to be solved.

maltedfalcon wrote:: regardless of current values or past values The complexity of solving the puzzles today probably has no relation to the complexity of solving the puzzles in 1981 as each site has undergone many changes over time. there is no possible way to estimate complexity, based on missing or changed ground features. clues that have moved or simply disappeared orreferences that have been obliterated by time. perhaps the most complex puzzle is the least changed and the simplest no longer even exists. While an interesting tidbit and a fact that BP said the puzzles vary in complexity with the value of the jewels. It is also a fact BP was atrociously awful at estimating puzzle complexity and how long it would take for a puzzle to be solved. MF, I was not referring to the actual casque locations, but rather the complexity of the puzzles themselves. Before we could even begin to dig somewhere, the puzzle from the particular Image and Verse combo has to be mostly figured out. For the sake of argument, let's assume that it is 1982 right now and we are seeing things on the ground as they were. This has no bearing on how much brain power I have to use to figure out each one. Chicago was simplistic. Cleveland was a little harder. Milwaukee a bit harder yet, and so forth.

After a nudge from another hunter to go down a path or look at a new way to view the puzzle, I have a theory about the 12 tribes of Israel and how it relates to the Secret. The theory introduces the tribes and links to the puzzle. I am sharing this in hopes that it might bring new ideas and a different approach in solving these puzzles. I suspect that the tribes play apart in the final resting area of the casque. With the thanks to GManTexas for helping with this theory. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Wh7seJZ8T-Kd4w_v7_fYsN9FvKKPyreURQi6cHfJklo/edit?usp=drivesdk

Goonie68 wrote:: After a nudge from another hunter to go down a path or look at a new way to view the puzzle, I have a theory about the 12 tribes of Israel and how it relates to the Secret. The theory introduces the tribes and links to the puzzle. I am sharing this in hopes that it might bring new ideas and a different approach in solving these puzzles. I suspect that the tribes play apart in the final resting area of the casque. With the thanks to GManTexas for helping with this theory. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Wh7seJZ8T-Kd4w_v7_fYsN9FvKKPyreURQi6cHfJklo/edit?usp=drivesdk I like it. There are some parallels and possible inspiration at play with this. I would be excited to see if this can be expanded upon enough hone in on actual locations.

I've developed a method of pinpointing waymarkers that works for image 1 only as far as I can tell. There are 11 half moons on top of the painting, in the arch area which would be a half-moon window. So in the same pattern as the frame of the painting I draw two lines straight down in tangent to the moon circle. The waymarker will fall in the middle. Direction of travel is dictated by the size of the moon. You can start from the smallest moon to largest or in reverse. I've posted detailed solution in image 1 thread ad nauseum. Here's a sample waymarker:

The coat of arms to the images all seem like great matches. A bit of a stretch though to some of the verses.

Goonie68 wrote:: After a nudge from another hunter to go down a path or look at a new way to view the puzzle, I have a theory about the 12 tribes of Israel and how it relates to the Secret. The theory introduces the tribes and links to the puzzle. I am sharing this in hopes that it might bring new ideas and a different approach in solving these puzzles. I suspect that the tribes play apart in the final resting area of the casque. With the thanks to GManTexas for helping with this theory. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Wh7seJZ8T-Kd4w_v7_fYsN9FvKKPyreURQi6cHfJklo/edit?usp=drivesdk I actually believe you nailed this 100% and you described it in a totally logical and readable way. Thanks!

maltedfalcon wrote:: I actually believe you nailed this 100% and you described it in a totally logical and readable way. Thanks! Thank you means a lot!

Goonie68 wrote:: After a nudge from another hunter to go down a path or look at a new way to view the puzzle, I have a theory about the 12 tribes of Israel and how it relates to the Secret. The theory introduces the tribes and links to the puzzle. I am sharing this in hopes that it might bring new ideas and a different approach in solving these puzzles. I suspect that the tribes play apart in the final resting area of the casque. With the thanks to GManTexas for helping with this theory. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Wh7seJZ8T-Kd4w_v7_fYsN9FvKKPyreURQi6cHfJklo/edit?usp=drivesdk Great job Goonie, I like it. I might have been the one that gave you a nudge as I was the one who posted about this on the FB thread last week. I too think each puzzle is linked to a tribe. And also agree that I'm not sure how it's going to help us solve, but I think it will lead to great thoughts, like your post, which will eventually lead to a solve. Thank you so much for sharing!

leighanny wrote:: Great job Goonie, I like it. I might have been the one that gave you a nudge as I was the one who posted about this on the FB thread last week. I too think each puzzle is linked to a tribe. And also agree that I'm not sure how it's going to help us solve, but I think it will lead to great thoughts, like your post, which will eventually lead to a solve. Thank you so much for sharing! Yes, and thank you for the nudge! I am not sure if it will solve a puzzle but I think the burial spot might have a connection to the tribe of the city.

Goonie, this is a great place to analyze the tribes with the puzzles. I have a couple of them linked up, but not as well as you, and not all of them yet. I'm not as familiar with the format of these boards and navigating, as I am with FB. (Hence why I posted there). But I have library books with some images that I could share. I'll see what I can figure out and accomplish over the next couple of days. Thank you so much for sharing...I look forward to great discussions!

Goonie68 wrote:: Thank you means a lot! Keep going down this path... I'm pretty sure it's correct.

Are there any Jewish people on this board? It might be helpful to know the treatment of time and months according to the Jewish tradition. Outside of this, I believe it was a nice reinterpretation of the story of the 12 Tribes. Maybe nothing deeper than that, other than the spark of inspiration.

We see touches of inspiration from Iconic paintings or objects in the images, maybe there is also that same inspiration from the 12 tribes hidden within each image and possible clues you encounter along the way cleverly disguised with in an area of the casque. If we can make connections to paintings or objects for inspiration, then it's possible that we can make connections to the tribes as well.

I can probably answer most questions you might have about the Hebrew calendar. One thing to note: The Hebrew calendar in use now is mostly based on the Babylonian lunar calendar (many of the month names are abbreviations or alterations of the original Babylonian). The Babylonian calendar seems to have been used across the middle east, as its names and quirks also show up in Turkey, in various Arabic calendar use. There is no link in Judaism between the twelve tribes and the twelve months of the year. The Wikipedia article about the Hebrew calendar is a good jumping-off point for researching how the religious hours, days, and months work in Judaism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar

Kalessin wrote:: I can probably answer most questions you might have about the Hebrew calendar. One thing to note: The Hebrew calendar in use now is mostly based on the Babylonian lunar calendar (many of the month names are abbreviations or alterations of the original Babylonian). The Babylonian calendar seems to have been used across the middle east, as its names and quirks also show up in Turkey, in various Arabic calendar use. There is no link in Judaism between the twelve tribes and the twelve months of the year. The Wikipedia article about the Hebrew calendar is a good jumping-off point for researching how the religious hours, days, and months work in Judaism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar Hey thanks! Get ready for questions, lol!

Kalessin wrote:: I can probably answer most questions you might have about the Hebrew calendar. One thing to note: The Hebrew calendar in use now is mostly based on the Babylonian lunar calendar (many of the month names are abbreviations or alterations of the original Babylonian). The Babylonian calendar seems to have been used across the middle east, as its names and quirks also show up in Turkey, in various Arabic calendar use. There is no link in Judaism between the twelve tribes and the twelve months of the year. The Wikipedia article about the Hebrew calendar is a good jumping-off point for researching how the religious hours, days, and months work in Judaism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar Kalessin, just reading your post again and I'm seeing evidence that the 12 tribes were assigned constellations of the Zodiac and months of the year. There is some disagreement about which Tribes are associated with which Zodiac signs, but nevertheless. https://milkywayastrology.wordpress.com ... an-zodiac/ https://ohr.edu/explore_judaism/ask_the ... rabbi/2394 hxxp://gyllenegryningen.blogspot.com/20 ... srael.html What I am interested in figuring out, is whether there is a pattern to the Images/Verses in The Secret and how they may correlate to the 12 Tribes or vice versa. Maybe this is all just a convenient plot device and there is nothing deeper.

Kalessin wrote:: I can probably answer most questions you might have about the Hebrew calendar. One thing to note: The Hebrew calendar in use now is mostly based on the Babylonian lunar calendar (many of the month names are abbreviations or alterations of the original Babylonian). The Babylonian calendar seems to have been used across the middle east, as its names and quirks also show up in Turkey, in various Arabic calendar use. There is no link in Judaism between the twelve tribes and the twelve months of the year. The Wikipedia article about the Hebrew calendar is a good jumping-off point for researching how the religious hours, days, and months work in Judaism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar Kalessin, just reading your post again and I'm seeing evidence that the 12 tribes were assigned constellations of the Zodiac and months of the year. There is some disagreement about which Tribes are associated with which Zodiac signs, but nevertheless. https://milkywayastrology.wordpress.com ... an-zodiac/ https://ohr.edu/explore_judaism/ask_the ... rabbi/2394 hxxp://gyllenegryningen.blogspot.com/20 ... srael.html What I am interested in figuring out, is whether there is a pattern to the Images/Verses in The Secret and how they may correlate to the 12 Tribes or vice versa. Maybe this is all just a convenient plot device and there is nothing deeper.

gManTexas wrote:: Kalessin, just reading your post again and I'm seeing evidence that the 12 tribes were assigned constellations of the Zodiac and months of the year. There is some disagreement about which Tribes are associated with which Zodiac signs, but nevertheless. https://milkywayastrology.wordpress.com ... an-zodiac/ https://ohr.edu/explore_judaism/ask_the ... rabbi/2394 hxxp://gyllenegryningen.blogspot.com/20 ... srael.html What I am interested in figuring out, is whether there is a pattern to the Images/Verses in The Secret and how they may correlate to the 12 Tribes or vice versa. Maybe this is all just a convenient plot device and there is nothing deeper. Let me explain my words a little better: There is not a major, accepted, religious link between the twelve tribes, the calendar, and the Zodiac. The reason that there is disagreement about which sign of the Zodiac might go with which Hebrew calendar month and which Israelite tribe might be associated with it is because there is no definitive source in the Torah (Old Testament), Talmudic sources, or modern Jewish practice. Of the three links you posted, the first doesn't use any Jewish sources (and seems to just be pulling stuff from everywhere in hopes to make linkages to modern occult thought), and the third is sort of the same thing, but using some Masonic sources. The ohr.edu link quotes a Rabbi who discusses the issue. It's written for a Jewish audience, so the perspective might be a bit strange. In the first paragraph, the rabbi explains the commonly accepted origin of the Zodiac (Mesopotamia and Babylon; the ancient Isralites are thought to have adopted the Babylonian calendar and the Zodiac as symbols of the months during the Babylonian Diaspora after the destruction of the First Temple, but the lunar calendar was in use all over the ancient Middle East). In the second paragraph he weaves some fact and mythology about how it is thought that these commonly known symbols entered Judaism, but the last sentence of the paragraph is telling: While Abraham is said to have been able to understand, it's considered a part of idol-worship (which is strictly forbidden) by rabbinic Judaism. The quote from the Rambam (a great sage) reinforces this idea: pre-Israelite people built temples to the stars, but they were misguided. The Rabbi then goes on to one place where the Zodiac does enter Jewish thought, in the Zohar, the foundational text of the Kabbalah. The Kabbalah is considered esoteric mysticism, outside of mainstream Jewish practice, and it was once considered the domain of advanced thinkers, too dangerous for people to delve into before spending years learning the rest of the Torah and the Talmud. Using the Zohar to understand Judaism is kind of like using the Book of Revelation to understand Christianity. If you're playing with the symbology of twelve tribes, twelve months, and twelve signs of the Zodiac as it relates to The Secret, there may certainly be something there (though I don't don't get the sense that the Zodiac or the Twelve Tribes are in puzzles, myself).

gManTexas wrote:: Kalessin, just reading your post again and I'm seeing evidence that the 12 tribes were assigned constellations of the Zodiac and months of the year. There is some disagreement about which Tribes are associated with which Zodiac signs, but nevertheless. https://milkywayastrology.wordpress.com ... an-zodiac/ https://ohr.edu/explore_judaism/ask_the ... rabbi/2394 hxxp://gyllenegryningen.blogspot.com/20 ... srael.html What I am interested in figuring out, is whether there is a pattern to the Images/Verses in The Secret and how they may correlate to the 12 Tribes or vice versa. Maybe this is all just a convenient plot device and there is nothing deeper. Let me explain my words a little better: There is not a major, accepted, religious link between the twelve tribes, the calendar, and the Zodiac. The reason that there is disagreement about which sign of the Zodiac might go with which Hebrew calendar month and which Israelite tribe might be associated with it is because there is no definitive source in the Torah (Old Testament), Talmudic sources, or modern Jewish practice. Of the three links you posted, the first doesn't use any Jewish sources (and seems to just be pulling stuff from everywhere in hopes to make linkages to modern occult thought), and the third is sort of the same thing, but using some Masonic sources. The ohr.edu link quotes a Rabbi who discusses the issue. It's written for a Jewish audience, so the perspective might be a bit strange. In the first paragraph, the rabbi explains the commonly accepted origin of the Zodiac (Mesopotamia and Babylon; the ancient Isralites are thought to have adopted the Babylonian calendar and the Zodiac as symbols of the months during the Babylonian Diaspora after the destruction of the First Temple, but the lunar calendar was in use all over the ancient Middle East). In the second paragraph he weaves some fact and mythology about how it is thought that these commonly known symbols entered Judaism, but the last sentence of the paragraph is telling: While Abraham is said to have been able to understand, it's considered a part of idol-worship (which is strictly forbidden) by rabbinic Judaism. The quote from the Rambam (a great sage) reinforces this idea: pre-Israelite people built temples to the stars, but they were misguided. The Rabbi then goes on to one place where the Zodiac does enter Jewish thought, in the Zohar, the foundational text of the Kabbalah. The Kabbalah is considered esoteric mysticism, outside of mainstream Jewish practice, and it was once considered the domain of advanced thinkers, too dangerous for people to delve into before spending years learning the rest of the Torah and the Talmud. Using the Zohar to understand Judaism is kind of like using the Book of Revelation to understand Christianity. If you're playing with the symbology of twelve tribes, twelve months, and twelve signs of the Zodiac as it relates to The Secret , there may certainly be something there (though I don't don't get the sense that the Zodiac or the Twelve Tribes are in puzzles, myself).

Kalessin wrote:: Let me explain my words a little better: There is not a major, accepted, religious link between the twelve tribes, the calendar, and the Zodiac. The reason that there is disagreement about which sign of the Zodiac might go with which Hebrew calendar month and which Israelite tribe might be associated with it is because there is no definitive source in the Torah (Old Testament), Talmudic sources, or modern Jewish practice. Of the three links you posted, the first doesn't use any Jewish sources (and seems to just be pulling stuff from everywhere in hopes to make linkages to modern occult thought), and the third is sort of the same thing, but using some Masonic sources. The ohr.edu link quotes a Rabbi who discusses the issue. It's written for a Jewish audience, so the perspective might be a bit strange. In the first paragraph, the rabbi explains the commonly accepted origin of the Zodiac (Mesopotamia and Babylon; the ancient Isralites are thought to have adopted the Babylonian calendar and the Zodiac as symbols of the months during the Babylonian Diaspora after the destruction of the First Temple, but the lunar calendar was in use all over the ancient Middle East). In the second paragraph he weaves some fact and mythology about how it is thought that these commonly known symbols entered Judaism, but the last sentence of the paragraph is telling: While Abraham is said to have been able to understand, it's considered a part of idol-worship (which is strictly forbidden) by rabbinic Judaism. The quote from the Rambam (a great sage) reinforces this idea: pre-Israelite people built temples to the stars, but they were misguided. The Rabbi then goes on to one place where the Zodiac does enter Jewish thought, in the Zohar, the foundational text of the Kabbalah. The Kabbalah is considered esoteric mysticism, outside of mainstream Jewish practice, and it was once considered the domain of advanced thinkers, too dangerous for people to delve into before spending years learning the rest of the Torah and the Talmud. Using the Zohar to understand Judaism is kind of like using the Book of Revelation to understand Christianity. If you're playing with the symbology of twelve tribes, twelve months, and twelve signs of the Zodiac as it relates to The Secret , there may certainly be something there (though I don't don't get the sense that the Zodiac or the Twelve Tribes are in puzzles, myself). That is a great answer, thank you. Well thought out. Then perhaps it is just a plot device. Although we could say that over time, as these notions began to evolve and take hold, they could be somewhat attributed to the 12 Tribes. For example, there is some thought that the gemstones in Aaron's breastplate evolved into the birthstones we commonly use today for the months. While there is not necessarily any religious meaning behind them, some people would like to revise history and find connections. This is kind of like the Easter Bunny, not many people question why we have an Easter Bunny. I'm not in that camp, I would rather know if there are any actual connections. However, from a fantasy or fairy tale point of view, it seems to fit the overall narrative of The Secret .

Kalessin wrote:: Let me explain my words a little better: There is not a major, accepted, religious link between the twelve tribes, the calendar, and the Zodiac. The reason that there is disagreement about which sign of the Zodiac might go with which Hebrew calendar month and which Israelite tribe might be associated with it is because there is no definitive source in the Torah (Old Testament), Talmudic sources, or modern Jewish practice. Of the three links you posted, the first doesn't use any Jewish sources (and seems to just be pulling stuff from everywhere in hopes to make linkages to modern occult thought), and the third is sort of the same thing, but using some Masonic sources. The ohr.edu link quotes a Rabbi who discusses the issue. It's written for a Jewish audience, so the perspective might be a bit strange. In the first paragraph, the rabbi explains the commonly accepted origin of the Zodiac (Mesopotamia and Babylon; the ancient Isralites are thought to have adopted the Babylonian calendar and the Zodiac as symbols of the months during the Babylonian Diaspora after the destruction of the First Temple, but the lunar calendar was in use all over the ancient Middle East). In the second paragraph he weaves some fact and mythology about how it is thought that these commonly known symbols entered Judaism, but the last sentence of the paragraph is telling: While Abraham is said to have been able to understand, it's considered a part of idol-worship (which is strictly forbidden) by rabbinic Judaism. The quote from the Rambam (a great sage) reinforces this idea: pre-Israelite people built temples to the stars, but they were misguided. The Rabbi then goes on to one place where the Zodiac does enter Jewish thought, in the Zohar, the foundational text of the Kabbalah. The Kabbalah is considered esoteric mysticism, outside of mainstream Jewish practice, and it was once considered the domain of advanced thinkers, too dangerous for people to delve into before spending years learning the rest of the Torah and the Talmud. Using the Zohar to understand Judaism is kind of like using the Book of Revelation to understand Christianity. If you're playing with the symbology of twelve tribes, twelve months, and twelve signs of the Zodiac as it relates to The Secret, there may certainly be something there (though I don't don't get the sense that the Zodiac or the Twelve Tribes are in puzzles, myself). That is a great answer, thank you. Well thought out. Then perhaps it is just a plot device. Although we could say that over time, as these notions began to evolve and take hold, they could be somewhat attributed to the 12 Tribes. For example, there is some thought that the gemstones in Aaron's breastplate evolved into the birthstones we commonly use today for the months. While there is not necessarily any religious meaning behind them, some people would like to revise history and find connections. This is kind of like the Easter Bunny, not many people question why we have an Easter Bunny. I'm not in that camp, I would rather know if there are any actual connections. However, from a fantasy or fairy tale point of view, it seems to fit the overall narrative of The Secret.

More research and connections to the image and hunt Chicago Simeon It's said that the tribe of Simeon pursued matters with the sword (or war) . The casque location was in Grant park, named after our 18th president. Ulysses S. Grant (Commanding General) lead the union army to defeat the Confederacy (war) This can be seen as settling matters with a sword. Color connections to the image and tribe: The colors green and yellow can be associated with the tribe of Simeon. The color blue mixed with yellow will created green. In the image for Chicago the colors Blue, Gold (yellow) and Green are present. (for clarification not all gems will match the tribes colors, it is just a representation of the color placed in the image.) The color green can be associated to the Irish and the immigration to the puzzle. In modern times, the ancestors of Simeon are wide spread through out Israel and Europe. The highest concentration of Simeonites is Wales. In the image the gem hangs off the ear, Simeon in Hebrew is Listen. I think the link between the Tribes and puzzles could gives us information about the whereabouts of the casques locations.

I agree with Kalessin and Goonie. In my limited research, I couldn't find any historically confirmed matches between the tribes, birthstones, months, zodiac. It's originating from the tribes most probably, but there are too many conflicting theories to pinpoint the matches exactly. So I don't think BP would have presumed and connected his puzzles that way either. I do think, however, he has hints to each tribe in each puzzle. But I don't think, for example Puzzle 1 (SF) would have to be attributed to the first born son, Rueben, nor the 6th born son, Naphtali because SF is June and the pearl. Even in the Bible, the order of the tribes gets a bit grey. The Bible lists the Tribes' blessings in Genisis 49 I think. So those should be considered first. But then also their flags and symbols should be considered as well. For instance, Dan's blessing was justice, but his flag may have been a snake (obviously SF comes to mind). Gad for Houston as his blessing was good fortune, but his symbol is a tent. And I kind of like Simeon for Roanoke island because his blessing was swords and violence, but his symbol was a gate. Anyway, if I had to guess, I think Goonie was right with his analysis of what the Tribes mean to the puzzles. It's a supportive story, but also, hints in each puzzle as well. We just have to find the correct match ups.

Dang, I just took pictures in my book of nice summaries of the tribes but I can’t seem to attach them here. If anyone would like to see them, just pm me on Facebook I guess.

leighanny wrote:: I agree with Kalessin and Goonie. In my limited research, I couldn't find any historically confirmed matches between the tribes, birthstones, months, zodiac. It's originating from the tribes most probably, but there are too many conflicting theories to pinpoint the matches exactly. So I don't think BP would have presumed and connected his puzzles that way either. I do think, however, he has hints to each tribe in each puzzle. But I don't think, for example Puzzle 1 (SF) would have to be attributed to the first born son, Rueben, nor the 6th born son, Naphtali because SF is June and the pearl. Even in the Bible, the order of the tribes gets a bit grey. The Bible lists the Tribes' blessings in Genisis 49 I think. So those should be considered first. But then also their flags and symbols should be considered as well. For instance, Dan's blessing was justice, but his flag may have been a snake (obviously SF comes to mind). Gad for Houston as his blessing was good fortune, but his symbol is a tent. And I kind of like Simeon for Roanoke island because his blessing was swords and violence, but his symbol was a gate. Anyway, if I had to guess, I think Goonie was right with his analysis of what the Tribes mean to the puzzles. It's a supportive story, but also, hints in each puzzle as well. We just have to find the correct match ups. I like having more eyes on this theory, but we did spent quite a bit of time on this and matching the characteristics and Coats of Arms of each of the 12 Tribes to the various images, verses and cities. You mention Gad and Houston, in some of the Coats it is depicted as three tents, we have very similar imagery in the Houston Image with the three dunes. If you can upload your stuff to the cloud, you can then link it here, rather than Facebook. I'd be interested in seeing your analysis.

gManTexas wrote:: I like having more eyes on this theory, but we did spent quite a bit of time on this and matching the characteristics and Coats of Arms of each of the 12 Tribes to the various images, verses and cities. You mention Gad and Houston, in some of the Coats it is depicted as three tents, we have very similar imagery in the Houston Image with the three dunes. If you can upload your stuff to the cloud, you can then link it here, rather than Facebook. I'd be interested in seeing your analysis. Hey Gman...I guess that was point about Genisis 49. There will be ambiguity and various symbols and meanings with the Tribes. So, I'm suggesting the Bible might be the best place to go for information. (Which I realize you all would have done.) I'm agreeing with you on Houston, just saying we will all find various interpretations and that might get tricky. That's why I think the Bible is the safest bet on what BP would have used as his main source. I'm referencing the the Rose Bible analysis books. I use their interpretations loosely. So how do I do the cloud thing?

leighanny wrote:: Hey Gman...I guess that was point about Genisis 49. There will be ambiguity and various symbols and meanings with the Tribes. So, I'm suggesting the Bible might be the best place to go for information. (Which I realize you all would have done.) I'm agreeing with you on Houston, just saying we will all find various interpretations and that might get tricky. That's why I think the Bible is the safest bet on what BP would have used as his main source. I'm referencing the the Rose Bible analysis books. I use their interpretations loosely. So how do I do the cloud thing? If you have an account on Google Drive or Dropbox, you can use those services. If it is just images then you can use Imgr, Flickr or some other images sharing service. Once you have logged into an account, upload your content. If you are sharing multiple items, maybe create a folder to put them in. Once this is done, you can right click or find the share button depending on the service. That link, or series of links can then be pasted into a post on here.

Thanks Gman and Goonie for the tips. Hopefully some of this info will prove helpful. https://ibb.co/LpyKFrg https://ibb.co/V3HCwtP https://ibb.co/kmHGW14 https://ibb.co/7QPBm4c https://ibb.co/FVvZzKL https://ibb.co/7gMnQTd https://ibb.co/LPVHYyc https://ibb.co/RP5qwhx https://ibb.co/WprK653 https://ibb.co/xXkyq48 https://ibb.co/Xxq3ZLX https://ibb.co/59yXCwF https://ibb.co/dMtFTSS https://ibb.co/F8xxr3C

leighanny wrote:: Thanks Gman and Goonie for the tips. Hopefully some of this info will prove helpful. https://ibb.co/LpyKFrg https://ibb.co/V3HCwtP https://ibb.co/kmHGW14 https://ibb.co/7QPBm4c https://ibb.co/FVvZzKL https://ibb.co/7gMnQTd https://ibb.co/LPVHYyc https://ibb.co/RP5qwhx https://ibb.co/WprK653 https://ibb.co/xXkyq48 https://ibb.co/Xxq3ZLX https://ibb.co/59yXCwF https://ibb.co/dMtFTSS https://ibb.co/F8xxr3C This is wonderful stuff, thanks so much for sharing! -gMan

No problem. I have 5 of the Rose Bible books from my local library a couple weeks ago. They are also available on Amazon. Tons of info in them.

After a cursory look at the 1st couple of pages of the book (the instructions on how to view the puzzle) I noticed the following: The picture below, a sample puzzle and solve, the jewel, nose and dig spot line up. This template works on Image 4. Using this template on Image 1 it points to a curved wall or a round planter, similar to my solution under the Columbus statue. I haven't spent much time on any other Image but recently I noticed that Image 8's camel may be a representation of the obelisk. Below are the links to the other images. Image 1: https://imgur.com/W1D4Bw2 Image 2: https://imgur.com/fsAGY1R Image 3: https://imgur.com/5BGgIbm Image 6: https://imgur.com/pS6gkyq Image 7: https://imgur.com/r3vcVK8 Image 8: https://imgur.com/1gzvUiG Image 9: https://imgur.com/J1MU942 Image10: https://imgur.com/BZlv5Hx Image11: https://imgur.com/uQqaWnQ Image12: https://imgur.com/cbCk0m0

Choice wrote:: After a cursory look at the 1st couple of pages of the book (the instructions on how to view the puzzle) I noticed the following: The picture below, a sample puzzle and solve, the jewel, nose and dig spot line up. This template works on Image 4. Using this template on Image 1 it points to a curved wall or a round planter, similar to my solution under the Columbus statue. I haven't spent much time on any other Image but recently I noticed that Image 8's camel may be a representation of the obelisk. Below are the links to the other images. Image 1: https://imgur.com/W1D4Bw2 Image 2: https://imgur.com/fsAGY1R Image 3: https://imgur.com/5BGgIbm Image 6: https://imgur.com/pS6gkyq Image 7: https://imgur.com/r3vcVK8 Image 8: https://imgur.com/1gzvUiG Image 9: https://imgur.com/J1MU942 Image10: https://imgur.com/BZlv5Hx Image11: https://imgur.com/uQqaWnQ Image12: https://imgur.com/cbCk0m0 I bet that you can draw straight lines at any angle from one of their ears to the gem in the picture, too....or, from some other arbitrary body part to the gem. (As you did with images 2, 7, 10 and 11....would have to do with Image 5, which you omitted.)

As always have to explain for special EZ. 2 from lion's nose. Line crosses her left arm near where her hands meet. 7 from mask's nose 10, 11 from woman's nose. No other body parts. What's so complicated? Image 5 falls in the flower/tulip field which I assume is the trees.

Choice wrote:: As always have to explain for special EZ. 2 from lion's nose. Line crosses her left arm near where her hands meet. 7 from mask's nose 10, 11 from woman's nose. No other body parts. What's so complicated? Image 5 falls in the flower/tulip field which I assume is the trees. Thought I would check this out. If, on image 5 you go from the Bowman's nose it puts a line straight though the central fence post (close anyway). On image 4, if you go from the centaur's nose it puts the line directly (I think) in the dig spot of the rectangle.

Choice wrote:: Reading the 1st couple of pages of the book (the instructions on how to view the puzzle) I noticed the following: The picture below, a sample puzzle and solve, the jewel, nose and dig spot line up. This template works on Image 4 and 5 solve. Connect tip of a nose to center of the gem, extend the line if need to. Dig spot may lie along this line. If you are close to pinpointing a dig spot, try using this method and see where it connects/intersects. It may narrow your X zone. Admittingly it may give you too many zones depending on the number of noses in the image! I do guaranteed results or your money back!

Choice, Image 4 seems to depict this pov for the wall in the Greek Cultural Gardens, because of the placement of the street side columns, in the image. If that's correct, then the casque was buried on the other side of the wall, on the left of the wall from this pov, not on the right as circled in what you've posted. What you're suggesting only works for image 4, if the pov in the image is the back of the wall, even though the street side columns are included....

That would be correct if you took the image as a realistic photograph of the location. I think it's just an abstract representation showing the back of the wall and columns from the front and the fountain bowl from Italian garden and not below the wall.

Yes, it might be an artistic depiction of the back of the wall. (I think I left room for that possibility in the last sentence of my last post, even if I don't agree. To me, It appears to be a spot-on rendition of the front of the wall.) But, I think there's a misconception, an incorrect supposition and a false connection within your original premise, followed by varied application of that premise within the images. All of that stops me from accepting the possibility of the premise being a method to use, at this point in time. Discovery of any additional casque in a location that can be shown to follow this latest idea of yours, would go a long way towards affirming it.

Just another tool in the toolshed even if not the sharpest! It may help someone narrowing their search. One of these guide lines in Image 12 goes right in the middle of the largest oval water drop, Thinking maybe the location is Governor's Island.

Choice wrote:: Just another tool in the toolshed even if not the sharpest! Choice wrote:: It may help someone narrowing their search. Grow up and stop with the attempts at jabs and insults. Stop posting, if you don't want interaction with the possibility of somebody disputing an idea. Otherwise, you come off as being no better than JC. Maybe....but, it won't, if the original premise is invalid. Regarding the possibility of Governor's Island...it may depend on the answer to your previous question, regarding whether or not the Coast Guard, as a military org, was as protective of their bases in the late '70's / early '80's as other branches of the armed forces, considering the fact that they were part of the Department of Transportation. (I don't know the answer to that, for sure...I suspect that they were cautious, but, can't definitively say that they would have prevented Preiss from digging in residential or common areas of the island.). It would also depend on what else in the image/verse led you there, besides this current idea and method you're following.

Choice wrote:: I was referring to my guide line concept as a tool. If you look closely at the arch you'll notice that the arch is not uniform, it leans to the left. So the fountain head is not sitting in the middle but offset to the left. This creates an optical illusion tricking the brain thinking it's in the middle. An straight line from jewel to nose will project to the planter area and to the left. This is an alternative to the Centaur nose.

Hey arm chair treasure hunters, As many of you know, I joined this forum in January 2018 right after the episode of Expedition Unknown in an effort to research and understand The Secret. Little did I know at the time that I would get so wrapped up and have the chance to visit almost half of the sites myself. It has been a really interesting year. Almost from the beginning, I felt that there was a lack of approach from the methodology standpoint. I understand that many people are interested in one particular puzzle or location, so the focus is narrow, but I feel that any project has a method behind it. The book "The Secret" is no exception. I have written a document regarding the Methodology and would like to share it to stimulate conversation and move this hunt forward. Some of this work has involved taking bits and pieces of research posted on this forum, but most of it is from analysis of the book itself. This document is a work in progress, although it is complete enough at this time to release the First Edition. I am currently working on some of the puzzles and connections as you will see in the document. It is a rather lengthy document, so it may be best to download and read offline. I would like to give a special thanks to Goonie68 who has been instrumental in helping develop parts of this Methodology. There are a few others that I have credited in the document as well. Enjoy, and happy hunting! ~ gManTexas https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bHk7l ... OpEYHqgPkM

gManTexas wrote:: Hey arm chair treasure hunters, As many of you know, I joined this forum in January 2018 right after the episode of Expedition Unknown in an effort to research and understand The Secret. Little did I know at the time that I would get so wrapped up and have the chance to visit almost half of the sites myself. It has been a really interesting year. Almost from the beginning, I felt that there was a lack of approach from the methodology standpoint. I understand that many people are interested in one particular puzzle or location, so the focus is narrow, but I feel that any project has a method behind it. The book "The Secret" is no exception. I have written a document regarding the Methodology and would like to share it to stimulate conversation and move this hunt forward. Some of this work has involved taking bits and pieces of research posted on this forum, but most of it is from analysis of the book itself. This document is a work in progress, although it is complete enough at this time to release the First Edition. I am currently working on some of the puzzles and connections as you will see in the document. It is a rather lengthy document, so it may be best to download and read offline. I would like to give a special thanks to Goonie68 who has been instrumental in helping develop parts of this Methodology. There are a few others that I have credited in the document as well. Enjoy, and happy hunting! ~ gManTexas https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bHk7l ... OpEYHqgPkM Amazing as usual, gMan! I can't wait to read this! Thanks for sharing!

gManTexas wrote:: Enjoy, and happy hunting! GManTexas, this is definitely a fun read! You already know that I disagree with a few of your ideas, though-- particularly the argument that all of the Image to Verse pairings are firmly "established."

Hi Gman, There is a ton of stuff to ponder in your first edition. I'll be fair and honest, I think some stuff is insightful and some is a stretch. A large part of my everyday job is to make maps, plans, scaled drawings of items to be recorded for historical purposes or just to be located again in the future. It often requires me to overlay past and present maps to find where specific things are or used to be located. Anything from a property corner to a sewer pipe is fair game. I have questions about your map overlays. What method are you supposed to use with 1982 technology to achieve these overlays? I can only picture a few ways to do this. -Cut the images in the book into pieces and hope you can find the correct park or city map that fits the pieces. -Keep the book intact and trace the images (elementary school style), then hope you find the correct park or city map that fits. -Cut up a bunch of maps until you find something that fits the image in the book. -Place the images on a projector and project it onto a map on the wall. (middle school style.) Resizing and superimposing images in 1982 was most likely a task even for a professional photographer. Near impossible for the common household that had instant polaroid cameras and film cameras with flash cubes that took a week before you got the pictures back from the local drug store. I'm curious, how would this be done without the endless variety of mapping and image manipulation software that is loaded on every computer today? **EDIT** If you ever come to visit Boston, look me up and ill take you to look at the Columbus Statue in person. It's not even remotely close.

BINGO wrote:: Hi Gman, There is a ton of stuff to ponder in your first edition. I'll be fair and honest, I think some stuff is insightful and some is a stretch. A large part of my everyday job is to make maps, plans, scaled drawings of items to be recorded for historical purposes or just to be located again in the future. It often requires me to overlay past and present maps to find where specific things are or used to be located. Anything from a property corner to a sewer pipe is fair game. I have questions about your map overlays. What method are you supposed to use with 1982 technology to achieve these overlays? I can only picture a few ways to do this. -Cut the images in the book into pieces and hope you can find the correct park or city map that fits the pieces. -Keep the book intact and trace the images (elementary school style), then hope you find the correct park or city map that fits. -Cut up a bunch of maps until you find something that fits the image in the book. -Place the images on a projector and project it onto a map on the wall. (middle school style.) Resizing and superimposing images in 1982 was most likely a task even for a professional photographer. Near impossible for the common household that had instant polaroid cameras and film cameras with flash cubes that took a week before you got the pictures back from the local drug store. I'm curious, how would this be done without the endless variety of mapping and image manipulation software that is loaded on every computer today? **EDIT** If you ever come to visit Boston, look me up and ill take you to look at the Columbus Statue in person. It's not even remotely close. Bingo, thanks for the comments. The first method is to see the maps visually with your eyes, pattern recognition. This is how I saw a few of the maps in the Images, namely SF and Charleston. If you follow the process and locate the general area, then a street atlas or city map would be great to study and compare to the Images. For verification, we had a number of options back in 1982. Tracing paper and transparencies were a great option. We were resourceful back then as you know, and making photocopies at the library, or at school was an easy option. We could even take relatively thin cheap paper and cut it into shapes and lay it onto maps to see how things line up. I would have never cut the book up directly, although photocopies would be fair game. This is where resizing would be easy, set the photocopier to 120% and go. I did this plenty of times. In many ways, the level of overlaying in photoshop is merely an extension of this process. Besides, we do not have to be super exact, only enough to see that there is a match and where the corresponding location is. You will notice that in all of the examples, the locations are lined up roughly, not down to the ten or one foot level. This is where we then apply the Verses to get us to the casque location. Note: Since I do not have the physical book, only digital versions, I have not tried to see what scale the Images to Maps might be. They may in fact lay onto a standard scaled map quite easily.

Good job gman!!! We all won't agree on everything but it's nice to see it all in one novel that you wrote broke down neat and concise.wow we spend a lot of time on this thing .lol.im sure you will be adding to it -jim

Durian wrote:: GMan, thanks for putting this together. Agree or disagree, I appreciate the amount of work involved, and it's a good stimulus for conversation and thought.... So are you saying in SF, for instance, that we should physically start the puzzle at Russian Hill Park, and then use the verses to lead to the casque? And are we also to presume the casques are in the parks the overlays point to? In other words, are you hypothesizing that the verses for each puzzle are self-contained within the confines of the identified parks? Thanks. Short answer, yes. You should be able to solve the verse for the given location, although not all lines may apply. They may not pertain to the confines of the park though. Some of the items or objects may be near the park. EDIT: Some of the clues may be in the Image as well.

gManTexas wrote:: Some of the clues may be in the Image as well. I can't say most, but some are "universal" as well

gManTexas wrote:: I would have never cut the book up directly, although photocopies would be fair game. This is where resizing would be easy, set the photocopier to 120% and go. Now is this true? I am trying to remember. The patent for photocopy enlargement was late 1978 and the book came out only 4 years later.... But I do not remember using a whizwheel to calculate photo copy enlargments until the late 80s 1988 or so... and I had access to high end copiers. I do not know when the scaling feature became standard on copiers but I think I would be surprised to find it was there when the book came out.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Now is this true? I am trying to remember. The patent for photocopy enlargement was late 1978 and the book came out only 4 years later.... But I do not remember using a whizwheel to calculate photo copy enlargments until the late 80s 1988 or so... and I had access to high end copiers. I do not know when the scaling feature became standard on copiers but I think I would be surprised to find it was there when the book came out. You may be right, although it may have been that time frame that enlargement became available. Reduction had been around for a while though. Here's some nostalgia for you! https://xeroxnostalgia.com

Great job, GMan! I enjoyed this.

Thanks for the kind comments everyone. I'm hoping to spur some conversation with this document.

I have read through countless posts from the past several years and have noticed many good theories have been put out there only to be swallowed up by the not-so-helpful ramblings of ‘experts’ in the field of ‘Because I Said So..’ Eventually, some of the theories resurfaced and seemed to get a better reception. Maybe the timing was better, or maybe the others had given up or got kicked out. Either way, I keep thinking to myself, It can’t be this hard. Can it? I feel like I may have missed something in all this, so I wanted to back up and start over to see if I can wrap my head around this mystery. So, let’s say I am new to this story and I am trying to figure out not only how to match the Images and Verses but why Mr. Preiss chose to do what he did the way he did. Even more importantly, I want to know how he went about setting up the hunt in the first place. I guess that would be Methodology. So here we are. Believe it or not, I have put a little time in on this. (not as much as others, but in fairness, I didn’t even know about this until last year) I understand that there are twelve Images which pair with the twelve Verses. The Images give you visual clues about the correct geographical area, which has a historical immigration connection, and the Verses give you further clues once you are in the correct city as to where the dig location is. Makes sense. It is a big treasure hunt puzzle. There is no ‘X’ in the Image marking the dig spot, and there is no step-by-step instruction in the Verse alone to get you there. We need both Image and Verse, or this puzzle won’t work. The instructions even tell us this. The Images and Verses are not numbered in a way that they match themselves, so there needs to be some method of connecting one to the other. There would need to be a clue in the Image as to which Verse pairs with it, or a clue in the Verse as to which Image pairs with it. It could be a word, a phrase, or some other clear reference from one to the other. Otherwise, how do we make the connection? More on that later. Now, it is 1980-ish, and I want to write a book. If I want to write a book about elves and fairies and far-off lands, I can do that. If I want to tell the story of their fleeing the old world with “dreams of freedom and contentment” I could write a wonderful tale of man versus nature… and so on. But I want something more unique. I want to create a game for people to play where they search their own backyards for some buried treasure. I want to make it fun, entertaining, educational and unique, but I can’t make it too hard, because people will eventually just give up and this will have been all for naught. Now let me think how I want to market this fairy treasure hunt. Who is my target audience? Children? Nah. They have Sesame Street to keep them busy. Retirees? While they do have some time on their hands, they are not likely to travel the country and dig holes for fun. Grown adults with “real jobs” won’t want to spend any of their free time on a treasure hunt. That would just be silly, Right? So those groups aren’t going to work. Who is left? I know, my target demographic will be.. teenagers, maybe early 20’s, mostly male, you know.. “D&D Nerds” (I’m only quoting the show here.) These kids already have a gaming mindset. They like fantasy themes. They have entire summers off to go get lost in nature. They are also less likely to stop and think, “Maybe I shouldn’t be digging a giant hole in this park in the middle of the night.” So, I write my book and include a task for all the world’s aspiring adventurers to go forth and seek buried treasure! Here is the catch: This group of young treasure hunters would have limited resources. They likely aren’t well-versed in cartography, 19th century manuscripts, or determining the complex algorithms hidden in the everyday world. They probably have little or no money to travel. There is no internet. There are no chatrooms. Back then you just went to the book store, bought the book, grabbed a buddy, and got to work. If you were super-confident, you grabbed a shovel on your way out the door. Libraries may have been helpful but were likely not an absolute necessity. After all, you already have the only book you need. Why would you need to go to the library? Now, supposedly, you can just go out and dig up a treasure using only an Image and Verse pairing. The rest of the book is reportedly not needed to find the treasure. Although, I am starting to think that Image-and-Verse-only thing is not entirely correct. I believe it was said that one could find the treasure using only the Image and Verse pairing, but I think it should go on to say that method is not recommended. The rest of the book contains important information which may prove helpful. So, we have the book and a buddy and a shovel, because confidence is key. And lucky for us, we just happen to live in one of the 12 treasure cities. Now what? How do we match the Image to the Verse? I don’t know. Is it as simple as matching the words in a Verse to what we see in an Image? I mean, Verse 4 tells us to “Seek the columns for the search” and Image 4 has columns in it. Boom! Found it! But then, Image 2 would match with Verse 1 “No lion fears” and Image 1 with Verse 9 “With wind rose” and so on. Maybe the birthstones and flowers in the Images are the key? But why both? If we are looking for specific months, the stones should suffice. Unless, because some stones look similar, the flowers simply confirm the month. Maybe we are supposed to be looking for month confirmers in the Verses? Nope, the only months in the Verses are May, July, August, and December. July and August… and December are mentioned in the same Verse, and December is in two Verses. Seems the month connection may be lost there. Maybe just by reading all the Verses and studying all of the Images, someone familiar with the area would be able to put it together. That seems to be how it worked for the first found treasure in Chicago. However, they almost missed it. By most accounts of the find back in ’83 it was a combination of intelligence, creativity, perseverance, and a little luck. If I remember correctly, one of the Chicago Crew later recalled having a conversation with Mr. Preiss about the location. Among other talking points, they discussed the “end of ten by thirteen” clue. Once thought to be 130 degrees using a protractor, the question about the trees was raised. They were told to go back and look at the trees again. Here is the issue with this: In 1983, within one year of this book being published, a key clue marker is already gone. One of the trees which was apparently used to mark the dig site was no longer there. Now, one could ask why it was no longer there, but that is not the main issue. The biggest problem here is that the landscape changed enough in one year to almost prevent the discovery of a treasure. If Preiss used this method of marking dig sites, or even waypoints, with natural objects, he must have considered that those things would likely change over time. This means one of two things: Either there are backup clues in the Images or Verses which can confirm locations in the event the landscape changed, or Preiss truly thought the treasures would be found so quickly that everything would be exactly as it was when he buried it. And if his intention was that these puzzles would be solved and the treasures found quickly, he would have to ensure that they were not too difficult. He would also need to have all of the treasures in place and the book published within a short timeframe or risk losing everything. So, how exactly did he go about getting it all set up? It got me thinking. If I went off to bury 12 fairly important objects all over North America, how would I do it? How long would it take? How much time do I have with all my other projects going on? Do I fly or drive? Where do I stay? I really need to think this through. In the end, I must have all of the treasures in the ground and allow for the disturbed earth to return to a more natural look before people set out to locate them. Otherwise, it would be pretty obvious where to dig. Also, I don’t want to be stuck digging in frozen ground, so maybe there is a better time of year to do all this. Is that what the months are for? Oh well, where is my shovel? There is a funny story of Preiss going through airport security with a shovel, but just that one time, I think. I don’t recall reading that he ever said anything like, “Every time I went through security with a shovel…” or something to that effect. And if you don’t want security asking about the shovel, why not just buy a shovel when you get there? However, regardless of whether he had a shovel when he went through security, he would have certainly had the plexiglass box and ceramic casque with him, right? Wouldn’t that have raised some questions? I know security was not what it is today. Depending on the airfield, it may not have been any more than, “What’s that?” … “Not a bomb.” … “Ok. Move along. Move along.” I know we are talking about pre-9/11 but it was also post-D.B. Cooper. There was an awareness. While a shovel may have been more easily explained away, a funny-looking object in a plastic box might have made more of an impression on the folks at the security checkpoint. They probably would have had him explain what he was doing and his need to bring it on board and then called a coworker over and had him tell the whole story again. We all know how that goes. Why risk it? Just Drive. So, I am trying to get this treasure hunt going. I am in the pre-planning stage and trying to figure out how to get the casques buried all over the country. Do I wait until I get there to research the area and jot down some clues for my Verses? Likely not. All of the research could be done from back home. Immigration references, maps, historical places and people, popular attractions and events could all be thoroughly researched and documented, and the main themes to each location could be hammered out well before I set off a-diggin’. Sure, there may be some things I wouldn’t know until I got there, but I think most of it could be sorted out in advance. That way, when I do get to my predetermined location, all I really need to do is bury the treasure, do a little recon to be sure my research is correct, snap a few photos for my good friend John Palencar and head out. Repeat this process eleven more times, and I’m good to go. Now I am no artist, but let’s say one who paints for a living could create one Image per week. (I really have no concept of the time it takes. I’m just guessing.) That would be a minimum of 12 weeks, plus any other drawings and illustrations. Then we need to make some prints, or at the very least, I need to check them out before I put them in the book. I may need to do a little editing, run it by the legal department, blob over any obvious areas that might give it away, etc. That could take some time. Should I rethink this strategy? Provided that I have the research completed, the storyline written up, the casques and keys created, the plexi-boxes made, the jewels secured in my safe, and a cheat sheet of sorts in case I forget how I paired the Images and Verses or where the dig sites are… or, God forbid… my only task now is to bury the boxes and publish the book. There are three ways all this comes about: I could go get everything buried and then start on the book. That would ensure the treasures are in place before my readers go looking for them. However, somebody might stumble on a treasure well before the book is released, and then there would be nothing for the treasure seekers to find. Or possibly an important clue, say a tree, goes missing in the meantime. On the other hand, I could get everything around for the book and then go bury the treasures. But what if the book is released before I get everything buried? It is unlikely, but it is something to think about. If I was unable to bury the treasures before people started looking for them, there would be people out there digging in the right spot but not finding anything. My other option is to go city-to-city burying the boxes, taking the photos and mailing them back to Palencar who will complete the paintings in rapid succession to be added to the storyline, which is already complete, and just a short time after the final brush stroke, the book is printed and released. How much time do I have for all this? Maybe I had better get everything else done well before I go dig the holes. Whatever we decided on, the holes were dug, the treasures are in place, and the book was released. Hopefully, nothing changes, and all treasures will remain safely buried until dug up by one of the readers – whenever that may be. Wow, with all that hard work, and the lengths everyone went to in order to ensure the success of The Secret and the integrity of the hunt, I should keep tabs on the locations to make sure this puzzle remains solvable. If for some reason the treasures are not found quickly, maybe I will release another book with updated Verses or at the very least print some hints in local papers or something, right? I should definitely keep this alive until they are all found. Maybe. Unless this is the true intention of the game. How do you keep an idiot in suspense? So here we all are. Grown adults with real jobs spending our free time on a ‘silly game’ from nearly 40 years ago. Only a handful of people can say they have actually dug up a buried treasure. If nothing had ever been found, I would have to say this was all an elaborate hoax designed to sell more copies of the book. The fact that even one treasure was unearthed means that these puzzles are solvable. Or at least they were. A lot can happen in four decades. I would have to say this was a well-thought-out puzzle game that not only got the readers involved in the fantastic world of fairies and treasures, it made them go outside and experience the world around them. It would be nice to find another one, but I think we are relying too much on the overly-complicated, technologically-driven methods of today’s world and forgetting that this was all thought up around 1982. Strangely, I think what is making this so difficult is that it was designed to be simple and straight-forward. I just don’t know. Byron Preiss was many things. In the end, he may have simply been too clever. I mean, It can’t be this hard. Can it?

UnprovenFact - Great post! Your post talks more about the method of burying the casques, so let's dig into that a bit. I personally take some of the statements attributed to BP with a grain of salt. There are probably seeds of truth in some of the stories, but he had to promote the book, so things may have been embellished. The tale of the shovel is a great example. It is difficult looking through the lens of a post 9/11 world and conceiving that you could bring certain things through security, but I can attest to the fact that security was extremely lax beforehand, especially in the 70s and early 80s. Some smaller regional airports were more or less open and if you looked like a businessperson, they would just waive you through. A shovel would not have been a problem at all. My theory is that BP probably coordinated some of the travel with business trips to symposiums, other publishers, sellers, etc. At a minimum, maybe as a write off for business expenses. In some cases, the scope of the puzzle and the level of detail (to me) indicates how much time he had on the ground. New Orleans appears to be well thought out with a high level of detail (not to be confused with difficulty), but Houston seems rather simple with few details. I would reckon that he went to NOLA, had a great time and chewed up his schedule. Possibly took the train to Houston and was limited in what he could do there, even though the prize of a ruby is much more expensive than a turquoise in New Orleans. So we have a matter of practicality which had to balanced against the worth of the gems and the difficulty of the puzzles. I suspect that geography plays into this. Being a native of NY would give him a lot of time to research the NY, Boston, and potentially Montreal puzzles. Then spending time in the SF area allowed for time there. Chicago seems like a hit and run job. Cleveland, while simple, seems much more thought out. None of this is to say that up-front work was not done, I believe there was. However once on the ground, you have to find connections to match the narrative of the book, and write the Verses.

Durian, one observation that I'd like to make is that we have to take the clues somewhat collectively and see where the thing flows. As others have pointed out, Twain could be connected to just about everything, but when we look at the other lines of the Verse, it tends to narrow our choices down. Further to your point, in broader brush strokes, rather than focusing on the minutiae, if we look for more general things then the choices are even easier. There was a discussion a while back about what would people think of if you asked them about Mark Twain. Instant reactions are somewhat limited to things like: The Mississippi River, steamboats, Books, newspapers, maybe a jumping frog, etc.

UnprovenFact wrote:: (1) Grown adults with “real jobs” won’t want to spend any of their free time on a treasure hunt. That would just be silly, Right? So those groups aren’t going to work. Who is left? I know, my target demographic will be.. teenagers, (2) The biggest problem here is that the landscape changed enough in one year to almost prevent the discovery of a treasure. If Preiss used this method of marking dig sites, or even waypoints, with natural objects, he must have considered that those things would likely change over time. (3) “Every time I went through security with a shovel…” or something to that effect. And if you don’t want security asking about the shovel, why not just buy a shovel when you get there? However, regardless of whether he had a shovel when he went through security, he would have certainly had the plexiglass box and ceramic casque with him, right? Wouldn’t that have raised some questions? (4) Maybe I had better get everything else done well before I go dig the holes. (5) I should keep tabs on the locations to make sure this puzzle remains solvable. If for some reason the treasures are not found quickly, maybe I will release another book with updated Verses Hi, Great post - but I have some issues with some of your ideas. So besides a couple other things in your post that I just disagree with, these are 5 things you got factually wrong. (1) The secret came out in November to take advantage of the Christmas shopping season. - The target market was People buying Christmas presents for others. The target demographic was intended to match the demographic of the book Masquerade and hopefully match the sales too. While Masquerade looked like a children's picture book, It's target market was adults 23-50 and that's where it made most of it's sales. (2)He did not consider that, as he fully expected all the casques to be found within 6 months to a year. his biggest worry was that they would be found so quickly the hunt would be over before it started and he could capitalize on it with more sales based on all the expected news coverage. (3) No since the casque, key and plexiglas box would have been inside his checked luggage, No one would have opened it or looked in it on a domestic flight, so no questions at all. (the shovel simply didn't fit in his luggage) (4) since we have identified images and ephemera found at the dig sites, used in the images. we know he would have had to bury the casques prior to the paintings being finished. (5) your logic is exactly backwards, since no progress was made on the hunt - there was no interest or ready market for a second book, Write the project off as a loss and move onto other projects with a better chance of financial success.

Durian wrote:: Exactly. To use my metaphor of a test, why would a question about Twain be included in the test? Probably because the person who designed the test knows we studied the point in question and are prepared for it. Back in school, exams covered what we are supposed to know, to see if we studied and paid attention in class. Asking obscure questions nobody studied for is a great way to guarantee people will fail. Now if you are designing a puzzle, it needs to be challenging but fair, with things that the average person had at least somewhat 'studied for' simply by being a part of the culture. How disappointed (and turned-off to the puzzle) would we all be if we discovered the riddles of the verses are unreasonably detailed and full of tenuous connections? If I took a literature course on Mark Twain, and part of the curriculum involved reading Huckleberry Finn and a biography about Mark Twain, I'm going to be pissed-off if the instructor asks a question on the final exam where the answer concerning the life and work of an American icon is 'Verdi.' I sincerely doubt Preiss and co. were scouring encyclopedias to create obscure clues. Your point about 'instant reactions' is much more likely and probably spot-on. The writer(s) of the verse saw a steamboat, frog, Mississippi reference, etc. and said 'Aha! I've got something that will work here: Twain!" That would be their 'instant reaction' to a photo Preiss took of a steamboat, for instance. They would expect that it would also be the 'instant reaction' of their audience. IMO we ignore the obvious at our own peril. I believe we are going to deviate here. Let's take the somewhat obscure literary references in some of the verses, or perhaps not so obscure, like Treasure Island. We have to first figure out that Treasure Island and Robert Louis Stevenson are referenced. Then we have to figure out why, and what is connected to that. This would all take a trip to the library and or the encyclopedia. I think one of the failings of the puzzles and the book as a whole, is that a really intelligent man misjudged his audience. He injected too much of his teachings (humanities) into the puzzles. If we stay with the Treasure Island clue, what the heck does that have to do with Charleston? On the surface, yes, pirates. But that doesn't give us much to go on, since we could have pirate activity in a lot of places.

Durian, yes, I probably didn't write what I should have. Some of the clues may be obscure, but I believe they are connected to something not obscure. So, the Treasure Island clue in the end might just point us to an object or event that is relatively easy to figure out. Maybe with some historical research. BTW, my current line of thinking about that, coupled with the Japanese edition clues, is that in May 1913 a ship was blown up in Baltimore. The ship was named the Alum Chine. The ship was named after the area in England of the same name. Robert Louis Stevenson had a home there where he wrote part of Treasure Island, which is referenced earlier in the Verse for Charleston. This gets us thinking about ships that were blown up, and of course everyone "Remembers the (USS) Maine". Or should at least from history class.

I realize that this methodology thread is geared towards alternative thought processes for solving these puzzles. That’s fair simply because the majority of the casques haven’t been recovered and it’s likely that we have been missing something important all these years. But, I have the belief that these puzzles were meant to be solved by locals. I think this “armchair” treasure hunt makes sense if your armchair is located in the city where the casque is buried. Why can’t the methodology just be simple? There are items hidden in the images that a local might recognize because it is something that he/she walks or works or plays near regularly. There are quotes or wording in the verses that might catch the attention of a local because the writer may have been famous or well known in that area. That wording could also point to a place or event that would be common knowledge to a local. I’m from Boston and the 982 train meant absolutely nothing to me before this hunt. I bet there were plenty of Houston locals that would recognize those numbers back in the 1980’s. I hold no stock in a research project method for these puzzles. Research was a complete pain in the ass in 1982 in comparison to today. Libraries didn’t have search engines that you could search for 100 different terms in a matter of minutes. Al Gore was the only person who had access to the internet in 1982. (That was tongue in cheek for those who are politically sensitive.) My point is, why would Preiss make a research project out of these puzzles? It just doesn’t seem practical for the time period. I know the Chicago and Cleveland puzzles aren’t popular discussion in this thread, but I believe both help get my point across. Chicago was done by local kids having fun and working together. They recognized important items and put a lot of important pieces of the puzzle together. Not from research, not from code breaking. They did it with their eyes and imagination. Everyone that loves to poo poo their success hasn’t come anywhere close to their accomplishments in these puzzles. Cleveland is the puzzle that people like to claim was the “easiest” of all of the puzzles. Why did it take 22 years for someone to recover it? My theory is that not many locals were looking for it. If they were, it would have been found sooner. Bottom line, this was supposed to be a fun adventure that generated publicity for the book. What headline would benefit the book sales more? “Local teens solve mysterious treasure hunt” or “Harvard professor spends months in library to solve a puzzle with a $1000 prize”. I know what would grab my attention enough to buy a book.

BINGO wrote:: I realize that this methodology thread is geared towards alternative thought processes for solving these puzzles. That’s fair simply because the majority of the casques haven’t been recovered and it’s likely that we have been missing something important all these years. But, I have the belief that these puzzles were meant to be solved by locals. I think this “armchair” treasure hunt makes sense if your armchair is located in the city where the casque is buried. Why can’t the methodology just be simple? There are items hidden in the images that a local might recognize because it is something that he/she walks or works or plays near regularly. There are quotes or wording in the verses that might catch the attention of a local because the writer may have been famous or well known in that area. That wording could also point to a place or event that would be common knowledge to a local. I’m from Boston and the 982 train meant absolutely nothing to me before this hunt. I bet there were plenty of Houston locals that would recognize numbers back in the 1980’s. I hold no stock in a research project method for these puzzles. Research was a complete pain in the ass in 1982 in comparison to today. Libraries didn’t have search engines that you could search for 100 different terms in a matter of minutes. Al Gore was the only person who had access to the internet in 1982. (That was tongue in cheek for those who are politically sensitive.) My point is, why would Preiss make a research project out of these puzzles? It just doesn’t seem practical for the time period. I know the Chicago and Cleveland puzzles aren’t popular discussion in this thread, but I believe both help get my point across. Chicago was done by local kids having fun and working together. They recognized important items and put a lot of important pieces of the puzzle together. Not from research, not from code breaking. They did it with their eyes and imagination. Everyone that loves to poo poo their success hasn’t come anywhere close to their accomplishments in these puzzles. Cleveland is the puzzle that people like to claim was the “easiest” of all of the puzzles. Why did it take 22 years for someone to recover it? My theory is that not many locals were looking for it. If they were, it would have been found sooner. Bottom line, this was supposed to be a fun adventure that generated publicity for the book. What headline would benefit the book sales more? “Local teens solve mysterious treasure hunt” or “Harvard professor spends months in library to solve a puzzle with a $1000 prize”. I know what would grab my attention enough to buy a book. Much of what you are saying is true, and most likely in 1982 you would have to be somewhat local, or spend time on the ground if you even figured out the correct Image and Verse pairing and then the location. I would also agree that the Internet and by extension, email and cheap phone service has made this hunt easier for looking at remote locations. However, as we can all see, it hasn't necessarily made it any easier to solve because it was designed primarily to be a boots-on-the-ground hunt. I completely disagree that research is unnecessary. This is the very reason that these puzzles are poorly designed and haven't been solved. They do require research. I am 92% convinced that if they were all like Chicago and Cleveland, this would have been wrapped up a while ago. To your point that not many locals were looking, it is really a case of not that many people in general. There are maybe a couple hundred die hard searchers involved in this at the most. Of that, how many are active? So there really isn't a large mind hive working toward solving these.

Since Bingo brought it up, I wanted to clarify a point about the found casques. I am not in any way trying to diminish the accomplishments of the guys who found the casques. I applaud their efforts and tenacity and it is a wonderful thing. It would be great to join that small circle of people. What I have said is that I do not believe that those two puzzles were solved, not fully at least. I still maintain, especially after visiting both locations, that they are two of the easiest and most visual puzzles in the book. There were a ton of breadcrumbs in the Images and Verses. This is why the casques were found without solving the entire puzzles. What I am also saying is that these two puzzles should not be viewed as a model for every puzzle. As I stated earlier, if this was the case, I firmly believe that at least a couple of additional casques would have already been found.

gManTexas wrote:: I completely disagree that research is unnecessary. This is the very reason that these puzzles are poorly designed and haven't been solved. They do require research. I am 92% convinced that if they were all like Chicago and Cleveland, this would have been wrapped up a while ago. Poorly designed or poorly interpreted? I think researching old photos and maps of suspected areas is priceless. To me, researching famous people and connecting dots to other famous people is fruitless. To your point that not many locals were looking, it is really a case of not that many people in general. There are maybe a couple hundred die hard searchers involved in this at the most. Of that, how many are active? So there really isn't a large mind hive working toward solving these. gManTexas wrote:: I still maintain, especially after visiting both locations, that they are two of the easiest and most visual puzzles in the book. There were a ton of breadcrumbs in the Images and Verses. This is why the casques were found without solving the entire puzzles. Since you mentioned that not many people were searching for these casques in general, especially in 1982, isn't it possible that the bread crumbs from other puzzles have been eaten by the birds of time and the clues went permanently unnoticed? It just seems like the logical explanation to me.

gManTexas wrote:: Since Bingo brought it up, I wanted to clarify a point about the found casques. I am not in any way trying to diminish the accomplishments of the guys who found the casques. I applaud their efforts and tenacity and it is a wonderful thing. It would be great to join that small circle of people. What I have said is that I do not believe that those two puzzles were solved, not fully at least. I still maintain, especially after visiting both locations, that they are two of the easiest and most visual puzzles in the book. There were a ton of breadcrumbs in the Images and Verses. This is why the casques were found without solving the entire puzzles. What I am also saying is that these two puzzles should not be viewed as a model for every puzzle. As I stated earlier, if this was the case, I firmly believe that at least a couple of additional casques would have already been found. I agree with gMan. I think the Chicago and Cleveland solves were brilliant! I've never solved a puzzle to that degree and probably never will. But I also don't think we should absolutely model every solve after them. Each puzzle is unique. Here's a very outside-of-the-box methodology I've been considering. https://thesecretofthesecret.blog

BINGO wrote:: Bingo, I have a deep respect for you and the work that you have put into this, so I tread lightly. We can certainly have a difference of opinion on this topic, and I am not trying to yell from the rooftop. I suspected early on that there were historical connections. After all, the book is a pseudo-historical tale. There are many examples in the book and the Verses that instruct us to research history. One thing that was proof positive of this fact is the Japanese edition of the book. In the interview/translation session, BP gave very clear instructions to look in the dictionary, look in the encyclopedia or history books, etc. For example, "what happened in May 1913?" I am somewhat bemused by the fact that in Verse 2, we have a very obscure quote from Domingo Faustino Sarmiento that references a hotel which was destroyed twice over and did not exist in New Orleans at the time of the book. Yet, no one blinks an eye at the reference, which is both research based and historical. In Verse 8 we have a clue to a woman playing a harpsichord. Obviously, we will not stumble upon this in the park, and no one has found a statue, so where else do we look? I'm not a fan of the Marietta Robusti theory, but let's assume that is correct for a moment. How do we figure this out? While I agree that this is an unorthodox way to create some puzzles, it is what it is. To answer your rhetorical question, yes many of the breadcrumbs may be in fact gone. I like to believe that BP chose his locations wisely, where the landscape would not change that much over time, and I suspect he did in many cases, but this hunt was never intended to last this long.

Maybe the slowspill thread can clean up all of this uncertainty. (I see you watching Renovator...)

maltedfalcon wrote:: So besides a couple other things in your post that I just disagree with, these are 5 things you got factually wrong. What? Only 5? Well then, I’m doing better than I thought - considering I wasn’t really making any attempt to be absolutely factually correct. My post was more of a fictional ‘what-if’ with which I was hoping to raise a few questions and not bore the readers with straight facts. I was simply trying to wrap my head around how the treasure hunt portion was initially set up by putting myself in the author’s place. I imagined it in a way that allowed my brain to maybe make sense of how all the intricate details of a game could be laid out so perfectly to create such a giant-scale treasure hunt with (now) worldwide attention and have it all come together without any hiccups... Except that it is still only 17% completed. So, obviously, somebody miscalculated something along the way. *Because the intended tone of printed words does not always translate correctly, I should explain that this post was not meant as a snarky retort to the criticism of another member. I’m not looking for a back-and-forth here.. I’m just ‘splaining my own methods.

gManTexas wrote:: they are two of the easiest and most visual puzzles in the book. This actually explains why they were the easiest. There is less room for interpretation when a fence is a fence and a wall is a wall, etc. The real question is why did Byron NOT believe they were the simplest to solve when he created them?

GoldenMartyr wrote:: The real question is why did Byron NOT believe they were the simplest to solve when he created them? Do you have a source for this statement?

gManTexas wrote:: Do you have a source for this statement? The Japanese hints for Boston certainly support this notion.

BINGO wrote:: The Japanese hints for Boston certainly support this notion. I agree with you there bud.

gManTexas wrote:: Do you have a source for this statement? Most people seem to discard or manipulate this statement because it does not align with how they interpret the difficulty of the puzzles. I've always taken it at face value. Why would Byron need to twist this? He believed that he created easier puzzles for the lesser valued gems.

BINGO wrote:: The Japanese hints for Boston certainly support this notion. Not exactly. The Japanese hints state - ....if I gave you any hint at all, it will immediately solve the riddle.... Let's examine that statement. There is no mention of the Boston puzzle being easier or simpler. I see two potential reasons for the statement. 1. There is a difficult method, that once understood, will allow you to easily decipher the clues. 2. Hints are based on keywords listed in the Japanese book. There is no good way to hint at the keywords without giving away the answer to one of them.

Golden, Yes, I have taken this into account and it is discussed in my Methodology document. For the purpose of discussion here, I agree that an emerald should be expensive and dictate the difficulty of the puzzle. It may have been a case where BP created this narrative and then was stuck with how it laid out, even though the Image and Verse are very simplistic. If I recall, the guys in Chicago that found the casque got the gem appraised at around $1,200 - 1,500.

Glad I could clear that up and you agree. So back to the original question. Why did Byron believe that Cleveland and Chicago would not be the simplest puzzles to solve?

GoldenMartyr wrote:: Glad I could clear that up and you agree. So back to the original question. Why did Byron believe that Cleveland and Chicago would not be the simplest puzzles to solve? I wouldn't say that exactly. Making a general statement about the difficultly is not the same as saying "these two puzzles are not simple". In terms of the gems, Cleveland was supposed to an aquamarine, one of the least expensive gems on the list. So we can throw that out. For Chicago, like I said, I believe that he either painted himself into a corner with the narrative for Chicago, or he just didn't have time on the ground. Honestly, it feels like he made a trip there, stayed in a hotel nearby and hurried to bury the thing and make a verse about it. There is also the possibility that they ran out of time and had to publish the book. To me, this whole endeavor was a huge undertaking and I'm sure it was difficult to pull it all together within a reasonable time frame.

gManTexas wrote:: For Chicago, like I said, I believe that he either painted himself into a corner with the narrative for Chicago, or he just didn't have time on the ground. Honestly, it feels like he made a trip there, stayed in a hotel nearby and hurried to bury the thing and make a verse about it. There is also the possibility that they ran out of time and had to publish the book. To me, this whole endeavor was a huge undertaking and I'm sure it was difficult to pull it all together within a reasonable time frame. (Preiss put a side note in the instructions in case a reader figures out the correct location but is unable to retrieve the treasure for some reason. He even put it in parenthesis - like this.) He also included a form to fill out if you thought you were close but didn't find anything. In a way, this is the insurance policy in case one or more treasures were not actually put in place in time. That could be why they haven't been found.

UnprovenFact wrote:: (Preiss put a side note in the instructions in case a reader figures out the correct location but is unable to retrieve the treasure for some reason. He even put it in parenthesis - like this.) In a way, this is the insurance policy in case one or more treasures were not actually put in place in time. That could be why they haven't been found. You just stepped into conspiracy theory territory. BP was alive for 23 years beyond the publication of the book.

gManTexas wrote:: You just stepped into conspiracy theory territory. BP was alive for 23 years beyond the publication of the book. ...And if anytime in those 23 years a casque had finally been located where others had previously dug and turned up nothing, there would have been some question as to the rightful owner of the treasure (and braggin' rights). Not to mention the backlash towards everyone involved in the book. It would have been a huge letdown to know there were never buried treasures to begin with. So IF a treasure was not in place at the time the book was published, it would have been better to leave it that way than to go bury it later. IMO, of course.

gManTexas wrote:: I wouldn't say that exactly. Making a general statement about the difficultly is not the same as saying "these two puzzles are not simple". In terms of the gems, Cleveland was supposed to an aquamarine, one of the least expensive gems on the list. So we can throw that out. For Chicago, like I said, I believe that he either painted himself into a corner with the narrative for Chicago, or he just didn't have time on the ground. Honestly, it feels like he made a trip there, stayed in a hotel nearby and hurried to bury the thing and make a verse about it. There is also the possibility that they ran out of time and had to publish the book. To me, this whole endeavor was a huge undertaking and I'm sure it was difficult to pull it all together within a reasonable time frame. I did say simplest and not simple. I'm not willing to make any assumptions regarding time invested in each puzzle or even the possibility that time ran out. Both ideas may be valid but we are discussing methodology. A better question may be why did JJP believe Cleveland and Chicago were the simplest?(sorry, no supporting documents here, just hearsay over the years) I look at it this way. Many people have a higher capacity to process visuals. I may be generalizing but artists could fall into this category. Many of The Secret hunters also fall into this category. Just look at all of the things they find in the paintings. Byron wrote the verses and clearly had a great love of prose. So this begs the question, what was simple to Byron? Puzzle difficulty is somewhat subjective but attempting to understand what Byron may believe is simple based on what he created could lend some level of understanding to the statement he made regarding the value of the gems having a correlation with the difficulty of their puzzles.

UnprovenFact wrote:: (Preiss put a side note in the instructions in case a reader figures out the correct location but is unable to retrieve the treasure for some reason. He even put it in parenthesis - like this.) He also included a form to fill out if you thought you were close but didn't find anything. In a way, this is the insurance policy in case one or more treasures were not actually put in place in time. That could be why they haven't been found. This is an inclusion tactic which broadened their target market. The ultimate goal was to sell books. Less limitations equal more potential sales.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: I did say simplest and not simple. I'm not willing to make any assumptions regarding time invested in each puzzle or even the possibility that time ran out. Both ideas may be valid but we are discussing methodology. A better question may be why did JJP believe Cleveland and Chicago were the simplest?(sorry, no supporting documents here, just hearsay over the years) I look at it this way. Many people have a higher capacity to process visuals. I may be generalizing but artists could fall into this category. Many of The Secret hunters also fall into this category. Just look at all of the things they find in the paintings. Byron wrote the verses and clearly had a great love of prose. So this begs the question, what was simple to Byron? Puzzle difficulty is somewhat subjective but attempting to understand what Byron may believe is simple based on what he created could lend some level of understanding to the statement he made regarding the value of the gems having a correlation with the difficulty of their puzzles. I don't know if we can truly answer these questions, and even if he was alive today, would he spill the beans? The amount of time spent on each puzzle is a valid question, and it is somewhat elementary to posit which puzzles were very involved, even if they are rather simple. Even if we have to work backwards from the most involved puzzles. Milwaukee is a great example of a relatively well researched and obscure clue laden puzzle, even though the walk through is more or less straightforward. The prize for Milwaukee is an Amethyst. It is one of the cheapest gems on the list. I would argue that Chicago was infinitively easier from both a scale and visual perspective. Everything in that puzzle is within a couple block radius and well defined. Milwaukee is a long slog.

Preiss lived and grew up in NYC, he wouldn’t need to spend much time to create a puzzle there. It has been speculated that Palencar and the writers may have taken part in the puzzles for their respective home base. To me, this makes perfect sense when thinking about time, budget and general efficiency for the project. As far as the length of the “walking path” from iconic image to casque site, there are people who simply don’t believe that it needs to be a walking path at all. I’m not necessarily one of them, but both Cleveland and Chicago were “recovered” without the need to start at the water tower or the terminal tower. If Milwaukee’s city hall wasn’t in the image, would we be so convinced that it was actually in Milwaukee? It seems that they all play more of a role as the city confirmer rather than the beginning of the path. To me, more potential evidence that a local to the area (during the time period) would have an advantage.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: This is an inclusion tactic which broadened their target market. The ultimate goal was to sell books. Less limitations equal more potential sales. Obviously the goal was to sell books... that is the goal for any author, publisher, company, etc. More publicity equals (hopefully) more sales. So it would need to be marketed as widely as possible. The broadest market is the world. However, worldwide, not everyone will have the resources to physically go to the twelve chosen treasure cities in North America. So, if the world is my market, and I want every reader to have an equal opportunity to claim a treasure, I would include a form and instructions for anyone who thinks they know the correct location but are unable to personally dig up a treasure. Am I correct? And IF the intent is to make it possible for anyone (worldwide) to claim a treasure, then it would seem that each puzzle could potentially be solved without ever leaving home. In that case, we are back to going to the local library and not necessarily a strictly boots-on-the-ground approach. Although, I would think some of the clues would be missed if one couldn't get to the specific site. This may have been covered already, but do we know if the book was ever sold without the treasure hunt part included?

UnprovenFact wrote:: Obviously the goal was to sell books... that is the goal for any author, publisher, company, etc. More publicity equals (hopefully) more sales. So it would need to be marketed as widely as possible. The broadest market is the world. However, worldwide, not everyone will have the resources to physically go to the twelve chosen treasure cities in North America. So, if the world is my market, and I want every reader to have an equal opportunity to claim a treasure, I would include a form and instructions for anyone who thinks they know the correct location but are unable to personally dig up a treasure. Am I correct? And IF the intent is to make it possible for anyone (worldwide) to claim a treasure, then it would seem that each puzzle could potentially be solved without ever leaving home. In that case, we are back to going to the local library and not necessarily a strictly boots-on-the-ground approach. Although, I would think some of the clues would be missed if one couldn't get to the specific site. This may have been covered already, but do we know if the book was ever sold without the treasure hunt part included? I think it would have been tough to not be on-site and that holds true for today. If for no other reason, to look at the scale and see the clues. The way I interpreted the claim form in the book is two fold. 1. We include everyone. This would also be older people who maybe had knowledge but not the inclination or faculties to go dig. The Chicago guys got some recommendations from uncles or something along those lines. 2. The searcher get to the area and either choses not to dig because they are skittish, not capable, or they don't have the tools. In 1982 we didn't just run to the hardware store and buy tools whenever we wanted. So, you could submit the form and see if the publisher would give you the golden ticket. In the case of Chicago, he assisted the guys. In 1982, it would have been difficult to fully decipher these puzzles remotely. Not impossible, with enough research and maybe some phone calls, but tough. I think the idea of this being a worldwide accessible hunt is a stretch. In fact, other than marketing to some well heeled travelers, I am surprised that there was a Japanese edition of the book.

UnprovenFact wrote:: Obviously the goal was to sell books... I was simply responding to your suggestion that the reason the form, etc. may have been included because some of the casques were not in the ground. Sorry, no way....

GoldenMartyr wrote:: Not exactly. The Japanese hints state - ....if I gave you any hint at all, it will immediately solve the riddle.... Let's examine that statement. There is no mention of the Boston puzzle being easier or simpler. I see two potential reasons for the statement. 1. There is a difficult method, that once understood, will allow you to easily decipher the clues. 2. Hints are based on keywords listed in the Japanese book. There is no good way to hint at the keywords without giving away the answer to one of them. Please stop trying to hurt my feelings. That hint is my only hope that is still intact.

gManTexas wrote:: In 1982 we didn't just run to the hardware store and buy tools whenever we wanted. That's because the garage was already full of tools. They were made by Craftsman, Stanley and True-Temper and they lasted for decades and we walked to our casque sites (uphill both ways) in 10 foot drifts of snow.

BINGO wrote:: As far as the length of the “walking path” from iconic image to casque site, there are people who simply don’t believe that it needs to be a walking path at all. Well I came up with the theory and even I don't think "walking path" is accurate. I said there is a path from an iconic image in the painting to the first spot in the verse. it seems to be straight or only have a few turns. But outside of a method for identifying the casque site area, I don't think there really is any point in actually trying to walk the path. This shows true in Chicago and Cleveland and looks to be true in SF Milwaukee St Augustine New York New Orleans Charleston Possibly in Roanoke Montreal Boston But does not seem to be true in Houston I suspect though it is true in Houston, Roanoke, Montreal and Boston, but things have changed so much it is too difficult to identify the "path" anymore.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Well I came up with the theory and even I don't think "walking path" is accurate. I said there is a path from an iconic image in the painting to the first spot in the verse. it seems to be straight or only have a few turns. But outside of a method for identifying the casque site area, I don't think there really is any point in actually trying to walk the path. This shows true in Chicago and Cleveland and looks to be true in SF Milwaukee St Augustine New York New Orleans Charleston Possibly in Roanoke Montreal Boston But does not seem to be true in Houston I suspect though it is true in Houston, Roanoke, Montreal and Boston, but things have changed so much it is too difficult to identify the "path" anymore. Care to share some details for discussion?

gManTexas wrote:: Care to share some details for discussion? viewtopic.php?f=32&t=6345

maltedfalcon wrote:: Well I came up with the theory and even I don't think "walking path" is accurate. I said there is a path from an iconic image in the painting to the first spot in the verse. it seems to be straight or only have a few turns. But outside of a method for identifying the casque site area, I don't think there really is any point in actually trying to walk the path. This shows true in Chicago and Cleveland and looks to be true in SF Milwaukee St Augustine New York New Orleans Charleston Possibly in Roanoke Montreal Boston But does not seem to be true in Houston I suspect though it is true in Houston, Roanoke, Montreal and Boston, but things have changed so much it is too difficult to identify the "path" anymore. it's good to see these changes

maltedfalcon wrote:: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=6345 I like a lot of that, and I would assume this is what got distilled down to "start at such and such, then make one turn and you're there." On a broader scale, I believe there are paths or entry points in the puzzles. For example, I believe that we are encouraged to take the old Cooper River (Grace Memorial) bridge into Charleston. In NY we are instructed to to take the Verrazzano-Narrows bridge (maybe Brooklyn bridge). It is probable in SF that we come in over the Golden Gate bridge on Route 101. Not to focus solely on bridges, but they popped into my head. The building seem a bit tougher, since you may be on foot. All of the buildings, like Milwaukee City Hall, Cleveland Terminal Tower, and the Chicago Water Tower are some distance from the respective parks. Maybe it is a driving thing. I think your theory has a lot of merit though.

BINGO wrote:: Look at the keywords. Regardless of how you interpret them, it would be quite difficult to create a hint without giving them away.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Well I came up with the theory and even I don't think "walking path" is accurate. I said there is a path from an iconic image in the painting to the first spot in the verse. it seems to be straight or only have a few turns. But outside of a method for identifying the casque site area, I don't think there really is any point in actually trying to walk the path. This shows true in Chicago and Cleveland and looks to be true in SF Milwaukee St Augustine New York New Orleans Charleston Possibly in Roanoke Montreal Boston But does not seem to be true in Houston I suspect though it is true in Houston, Roanoke, Montreal and Boston, but things have changed so much it is too difficult to identify the "path" anymore. If you want the exact spot to minimize your digging time, you definitely need the walking path. Houston’s a problem, though. When I walked it last month, I found there’s now an obstacle, so I can’t be sure I went where I wanted to go. The rest was still walkable.

I have a feeling there isn’t much left to the images as far as traditional onsite matches. We seem to be beating a dead horse here. Cleveland and Chicago were found because there are so many onsite image matches. The rest likely have different methods. There are three things I believe we should shift our focus to in the images. 1. Map waypoints or map related objects. 2. What am I’s- think Lincoln in SF or Mace in Roanoke. 3. Mini Puzzles- Montreal’s "find me here" finger pointing in the GSM, Sf’s 3/4 finger pointing.

One thing I do feel that all puzzles may have in common is text matches on site. All verses besides 2, 7, 8, 10 have words or portions of the verse that have been found on physical objects in their respective cities. Image 7 adds NOLA to the list(Preservation). So, 9 of 12 cities have words from the puzzle that appear onsite. That is 75% of our cities that fit the pattern. Could we be missing onsite text in SF, MKE, and NYC?

GoldenMartyr wrote:: One thing I do feel that all puzzles may have in common is text matches on site. All verses besides 2, 7, 8, 10 have words or portions of the verse that have been found on physical objects in their respective cities. Image 7 adds NOLA to the list(Preservation). So, 9 of 12 cities have words from the puzzle that appear onsite. That is 75% of our cities that fit the pattern. Could we be missing onsite text in SF, MKE, and NYC? If we take "the sign" in Verse 10 literally, then we should be looking for a sign that wither contains words from the Verse, the Image, or a derivation of the meaning of the words in the Verse.

The best find there seems to be the Fraunces Tavern sign.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: The best find there seems to be the Fraunces Tavern sign. Can you elaborate on that? Reasoning and how the location relates to the puzzle?

You mentioned taking the sign literally. Fraunces Tavern has a sign that speaks of Indies native. It was discussed a lot years ago but fell off with the changing of the guard. It's claimed to be "the oldest building in NYC" and is a couple blocks east of Battery Park.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: You mentioned taking the sign literally. Fraunces Tavern has a sign that speaks of Indies native. It was discussed a lot years ago but fell off with the changing of the guard. It's claimed to be "the oldest building in NYC" and is a couple blocks east of Battery Park. This assumes that we are looking in lower Manhattan for the casque, correct?

gManTexas wrote:: This assumes that we are looking in lower Manhattan for the casque, correct? I'm making zero assumptions. Assumptions are a problem IMO. My original comment was that there may be text onsite for NYC, MKE, and SF, given there is text onsite for 9 of the 12 puzzles(methodology). You brought up the fact that we may be looking for a literal sign in NY, to which I then replied about Fraunces Tavern. I feel that some puzzles have been narrowed down to a specific area using logic. Others, not so much. The way I approach the puzzles which I feel have not been proven to be in a more specific area, is to look at the best possible interpretation of the clues in their respective cities. If Fraunces Tavern were an acceptable interpretation to a treasure hunter then it would point to lower Manhattan. That would be better suited as a V10 discussion....we sort of crossed over from methodology.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: I'm making zero assumptions. Assumptions are a problem IMO. My original comment was that there may be text onsite for NYC, MKE, and SF, given there is text onsite for 9 of the 12 puzzles(methodology). You brought up the fact that we may be looking for a literal sign in NY, to which I then replied about Fraunces Tavern. I feel that some puzzles have been narrowed down to a specific area using logic. Others, not so much. The way I approach the puzzles which I feel have not been proven to be in a more specific area, is to look at the best possible interpretation of the clues in their respective cities. If Fraunces Tavern were an acceptable interpretation to a treasure hunter then it would point to lower Manhattan. That would be better suited as a V10 discussion....we sort of crossed over from methodology. I agree.

GoldenMartyr wrote:: One thing I do feel that all puzzles may have in common is text matches on site. All verses besides 2, 7, 8, 10 have words or portions of the verse that have been found on physical objects in their respective cities. Image 7 adds NOLA to the list(Preservation). So, 9 of 12 cities have words from the puzzle that appear onsite. That is 75% of our cities that fit the pattern. Could we be missing onsite text in SF, MKE, and NYC? Where is the onsite text for image 11? Moreover, where is the site? haha!

strike13 wrote:: Where is the onsite text for image 11? Moreover, where is the site? haha! Many will attach T and X at the BPL as the on-site text. Josh Cornell even landed his solve there, it has to be there....

BINGO wrote:: Many will attach T and X at the BPL as the on-site text. Josh Cornell even landed his solve there, it has to be there.... Yes, I believe it is the verse, not image pointing to T and X. My thought is this. Byron Preiss had a very successful career in literature. It's no secret that children's books were important to him and held a special place in his heart. The BPL is a fantastic specimen and was the first library to establish a space for children. I have trouble believing that he wouldn't visit the BPL. Even if he had not visited, it was shown in encyclopedias, et al. I just cannot convince myself that this is a huge coincidence.

I've finished all the translation work for the Japanese editions, a request letter including all the context and transcript were submitted to the Fellow Academy in Tokyo for the approval from Mr. Masaki (original translator)

I think I may have found a link between the 12 puzzles and 12 books of the Old Testament. I have brief descriptions on how I think BP matched up the puzzles and books. I've posted this on Facebook and a couple of other places as well, so I apologize if you're seeing this for the second time. These notes are in the "Exiled by the Law of the Prophet" blog. I can't seem to get the link so you may have to copy it. https://thesecretofthesecret.blog

leighanny wrote:: I think I may have found a link between the 12 puzzles and 12 books of the Old Testament. I have brief descriptions on how I think BP matched up the puzzles and books. I've posted this on Facebook and a couple of other places as well, so I apologize if you're seeing this for the second time. These notes are in the "Exiled by the Law of the Prophet" blog. I can't seem to get the link so you may have to copy it. https://thesecretofthesecret.blog I commend you for your theory. it is well thought out and all. With that being said and after reading your site, I don't see much of a match. Even at some points where you make a correlation it does not really lead anywhere. It is a very interesting concept, the bible in relation to The Secret, I just think it is a stretch.

I thought I should push this thread back up from page 4. The words up, down, back and out may be used as directional pointers: up = north down = south back = east out = west For example: V02: Fifteen rows down to the ground V10: Look down (south) Or gaze 'north' V01: Looking back (east) from treasure ground V05: From the west side To dig out (west).

This is an idea but it is not based on anything. I could give you "up is north and down is south" if it worked in a solved puzzle. I do not see how you got "out is east and back is west." I think the verses are clear. Up is up and down is down. Interesting Idea but I don't see how it is useful.

You never heard "out west" or "back east"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA2xCLKNXmQ

Choice wrote:: You never heard "out west" or "back east"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA2xCLKNXmQ Was this available prior to the Wade Hayes release in 2000? If not, probably just Preiss using his time machine to make the 1981-82 era puzzles more difficult.

No genius, I was giving an example of out west, back east. I'm sure the saying was used before the 80's since it's commonly used in the old western movies.

Compliment accepted. My point is, the example would have been slightly less ridiculous if it was from one of your old western movies.

Put your T-rex lil hands to work and Google out west imdb

Doesn’t really work for down. In Maine, Down East has been a thing a lot longer than your western movies and country songs. Just admit it was a dumb theory and we can all move on.

Have you ever eaten at Eastwest. I had a Bloomin' Onion and it was delirious. Did I say Eastwest, I meant Outback. My bad, you know how the words are interchangeable.

BINGO wrote:: Doesn’t really work for down. In Maine, Down East has been a thing a lot longer than your western movies and country songs. Just admit it was a dumb theory and we can all move on. I've heard of down south, not down east. Anywho, don't use it if you don't think it's plausible. Just don't have a cow man!

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Choice wrote:: I thought I should push this thread back up from page 4. The words up, down, back and out may be used as directional pointers: up = north down = south back = east out = west I don't know this was actually used, but it is totally plausible to me as a method.

maltedfalcon wrote:: I don't know this was actually used, but it is totally plausible to me as a method. It’s possible for individual situations and even then more likely to be coincidence. As an all encompassing methodology, ridiculous. If I’m wrong, I’ll gladly admit it and apologize. Until then, there is some real work that needs to be done to take this theory to the level of method.

The whole reason I posted on this thread was so that I don't have to post on 1/2 dozen image threads and then I'd hear from the usual reactive suspects about posting too many times. Control your reactive (today's word) tendencies.

I’ll control my reactions when you control your compulsions. Tit for tat. It’s a vicious cycle.

I'll try to control my compulsion to post useful info. But you go on with your instant knee-jerk (emphasis on jerk) nonsensical postings.

Choice wrote:: I'll try to control my compulsion to post useful info. But you go on with your instant knee-jerk (emphasis on jerk) nonsensical postings. I rest my case.

Anyone for toast and coffee this morning?

Choice wrote:: I've heard of down south, not down east. Anywho, don't use it if you don't think it's plausible. Just don't have a cow man! well it is a thing. in fact...i am taking the Amtrak DOWNEASTER to portland this weekend.

Come on strike, let’s not let facts get in the way of an amazingly productive theory...

Unknown: i am taking the Amtrak DOWNEASTER to portland this weekend "Down East" is a regional idiom, in much the same way the folks in New Jersey say "down the shore", or the way Texans divide their state into north, south, east, and west when referring to another part of the state. It's perfectly valid, but something I think BP would have avoided in a puzzle designed to appeal to the whole of North America. An apropos of nothing, Maine is the only state east of the Mississippi River that I have never set foot in. Have a great trip.

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: "Down East" is a regional idiom, in much the same way the folks in New Jersey say "down the shore", or the way Texans divide their state into north, south, east, and west when referring to another part of the state. It's perfectly valid, but something I think BP would have avoided in a puzzle designed to appeal to the whole of North America. An apropos of nothing, Maine is the only state east of the Mississippi River that I have never set foot in. Have a great trip. You are really missing out!! If you ever make it up to Boston you should DEFINITELY check maine out. Portland is awesome...has a lot to offer....good food...good beahs...good scenery. It's only like an hour and 45 mins from Bos.

So the point of my post was that there may be alternate meaning to up/down/out/back; perhaps directional pointers like a compass. Then reactively reject the idea and then suggest that down may mean east which is also a directional pointer. So great, we agree! In fact I like to expand on my theory and add directional numbers; i.e. 12/north, 3/east, 6/south and 9/west. Did anyone find a match for the NY clock with only 4 digits on the face? Down for east works perfectly well for the NY puzzle. So Matt in his previous post was very sure that he has a match for the clock and eagle. Does the clock have only 4 digits?